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One can blame politicians and corporations all they like, but the simple fact is that >50% of the country (and significantly more than that when accounting for

by paxys 3y ago

One can blame politicians and corporations all they like, but the simple fact is that >50% of the country (and significantly more than that when accounting for skewed political representation) does not want the system to change, because to them any alternative is "socialism".

giantg2 3y ago
... US government-run "socialism". Because we all know how well they run all the other programs, especially if you've dealt with healthcare they already run (military and VA). I'd imagine people would be clamoring for socialized medicine if they fixed the VA to be a shining example.
- paxys 3y ago
  And yet Medicare has a 94% satisfaction rate.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    Sure, once they pay their tax for decades, pay their premiums and copay, and buy their supplimental private insurance (not to mention facilities diffusing some costs through higher price setting of private parties). It's not a bad system, but you can't really scale a system that takes decades to fund and requires all these other costs. Especially since this conversation is about debt to medical facilities which can still occur under Medicare (or be forced onto Medicaid). Yes, supposedly it would save the US $2 trillion over 10 years, although there is some debate on that. Edit: why disagree?
- lazide 3y ago
  The VA may suck. But compared to 90% of private insurance, it’s amazing.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    That has not be the experiences I've heard of from just about anyone who has had both.
    - lazide 3y ago
      Compared to a PPO plan? Definitely has been what I’ve seen.
      - giantg2 3y ago
        Distances to the VA can be far for many. It can be extremely difficult to be seen by another facility/provider. It can be difficult to get/use your benefits in general. PPOs are basically the same type of restrictions, only the facilities tend to be held to higher state standards.
        lazide 3y ago
        A lot of veterans live in rural areas. Far more than you’d expect. Anecdotally, literally 100% of all the ones I know, but definitely not all. If you compared normal insurance and care options where they are at (especially considering their income level) to VA care, it’s actually quite good. Especially if you know how to treat them more like an HMO and work the system. Private rural medical care is… not great. And usually requires a lot of travel. And unlike the VA, is rarely in a single facility. Generally everyone bitches about it though, because that’s how the military works anyway. And yes there are often (changing) systematic issues, though they often get fixed. Are there better options? Yes, especially if you’re high income and can afford a higher tier private plan, and/or live in a higher population density area where facilities and standards of care can afford to be higher. That is not a typical situation for most Veterans though, for many reasons. And not a typical situation for a lot of the population either.
edgyquant 3y ago
No it’s because socialism isn’t the only alternative and half the country wants to use it as an excuse to enact socialism, just like they want to use literally every other issue as an excuse to enact socialism. To me the medical system is the worst of both worlds. It’s heavily regulated in favor of the businesses (insurance/hospitals) and gives the illusion of competition when in reality “networks” exist to ensure there is no actual competition. I think either full on socialism or fully free market would be a huge improvement.
- kibwen 3y ago
  > I think either full on socialism or fully free market would be a huge improvement. Demand for healthcare is about as inelastic as it gets. And inelastic goods make for inefficient markets. One doesn't need to be a full-on communist to recognize that markets are not the correct solution to every problem. Meanwhile, the fact that healthcare is tied to employment in the US has terrible consequences for small businesses and for the efficiency of the labor market. From where I stand, socializing healthcare is the pro-business move.
wolverine876 3y ago
> >50% of the country (and significantly more than that when accounting for skewed political representation) does not want the system to change, because to them any alternative is "socialism". As I said, if we can't overcome that absolutely weak, absurd argument, the problem is us (and many others). Let's get to work and stop talking like victims.

by paxys 3y ago

giantg2 3y ago

... US government-run "socialism". Because we all know how well they run all the other programs, especially if you've dealt with healthcare they already run (military and VA). I'd imagine people would be clamoring for socialized medicine if they fixed the VA to be a shining example.

paxys 3y ago
And yet Medicare has a 94% satisfaction rate.
- giantg2 3y ago
  Sure, once they pay their tax for decades, pay their premiums and copay, and buy their supplimental private insurance (not to mention facilities diffusing some costs through higher price setting of private parties). It's not a bad system, but you can't really scale a system that takes decades to fund and requires all these other costs. Especially since this conversation is about debt to medical facilities which can still occur under Medicare (or be forced onto Medicaid). Yes, supposedly it would save the US $2 trillion over 10 years, although there is some debate on that. Edit: why disagree?
lazide 3y ago
The VA may suck. But compared to 90% of private insurance, it’s amazing.
- giantg2 3y ago
  That has not be the experiences I've heard of from just about anyone who has had both.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Compared to a PPO plan? Definitely has been what I’ve seen.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      Distances to the VA can be far for many. It can be extremely difficult to be seen by another facility/provider. It can be difficult to get/use your benefits in general. PPOs are basically the same type of restrictions, only the facilities tend to be held to higher state standards.
      - lazide 3y ago
        A lot of veterans live in rural areas. Far more than you’d expect. Anecdotally, literally 100% of all the ones I know, but definitely not all. If you compared normal insurance and care options where they are at (especially considering their income level) to VA care, it’s actually quite good. Especially if you know how to treat them more like an HMO and work the system. Private rural medical care is… not great. And usually requires a lot of travel. And unlike the VA, is rarely in a single facility. Generally everyone bitches about it though, because that’s how the military works anyway. And yes there are often (changing) systematic issues, though they often get fixed. Are there better options? Yes, especially if you’re high income and can afford a higher tier private plan, and/or live in a higher population density area where facilities and standards of care can afford to be higher. That is not a typical situation for most Veterans though, for many reasons. And not a typical situation for a lot of the population either.

edgyquant 3y ago

No it’s because socialism isn’t the only alternative and half the country wants to use it as an excuse to enact socialism, just like they want to use literally every other issue as an excuse to enact socialism. To me the medical system is the worst of both worlds. It’s heavily regulated in favor of the businesses (insurance/hospitals) and gives the illusion of competition when in reality “networks” exist to ensure there is no actual competition. I think either full on socialism or fully free market would be a huge improvement.

kibwen 3y ago
> I think either full on socialism or fully free market would be a huge improvement. Demand for healthcare is about as inelastic as it gets. And inelastic goods make for inefficient markets. One doesn't need to be a full-on communist to recognize that markets are not the correct solution to every problem. Meanwhile, the fact that healthcare is tied to employment in the US has terrible consequences for small businesses and for the efficiency of the labor market. From where I stand, socializing healthcare is the pro-business move.

wolverine876 3y ago

> >50% of the country (and significantly more than that when accounting for skewed political representation) does not want the system to change, because to them any alternative is "socialism". As I said, if we can't overcome that absolutely weak, absurd argument, the problem is us (and many others). Let's get to work and stop talking like victims.