4 ms·

Most of the remote jobs I see from Germany also hire only those who live in Germany, so it seems to me that Germans don't even want EU citizens, just Germans.

devdude1337 3y ago
Many managers I got to know have a hard time expressing themselves in English properly. They fear miscommunication and the administrative work connected to non-German employees.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
That's in every EU country for tax and social security reasons, they want you to also be a tax resident there because that dicatates your tax, labor laws and employee benefits meaning it's familiar and predictable for the company. There's no EU wide citizenship, employee regulations and tax liability for employees but are local for each country. They don't want you earning money in one country but spemding it and taxing it in another. This is where the EU is weaker than the US and will keep missing the mark in software.
- askonomm 3y ago
  You pay income tax based on where you live though. So I can earn money from Germany, but if I live in Estonia, my taxes go to Estonia. Most remote workers I know are set up as LLC's, and they simply invoice their clients for the work, entirely avoiding any tax or social security issues for the employer, since you the employee have to deal with it yourself in your own country.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Yeah, you can but as LLCs, not as direct employees.
    - askonomm 3y ago
      Well yes, EU/Europe is a collection of many independent countries, unlike U.S which is one country. And you can't work in a country as an employee without having a residence permit in that country. The comparison to U.S here makes absolutely no sense.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >The comparison to U.S here makes absolutely no sense. Why not? My ex German boss moved to the US to work for a company there and since the position is remote, he can live and work in any state he wants. You can't do that in the EU which limits labor mobility which hurts the EU economy and innovation versus the US.
        askonomm 3y ago
        United States is one country. European Union is not a country, it is a collection of many independent countries with separate laws, languages, cultures, governments. You can also live and work from any corner of the same country in EU if you want, provided that your job is also in the same country, just like in the U.S. This is not any different. What you're saying is like can you work for a Canadian company while living in the U.S? Or an Argentinian company while living in the U.S? I don't think so. So I fail to see how U.S is somehow better here, and you're comparing European Union to 1 country, which is just ridiculous, since EU is not a country. European Union "states" are not the same as U.S states. They are actual countries.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        I never said the EU is a country (nor does it need to be to fulfill my point), but as an economic block, if it wishes to compete with the US in terms of economy and innovation, it needs to do better in terms of labor mobility, and the current status quo is holding it back. I hope my point of what I originally meant is clear now and you don't need to explain anymore about why the EU is not a country like the US.
  - gituliar 3y ago
    At first you pay taxes in the country the company you work for is registered (there might be b2b options, which might differ). Then you pay rest in the country where you have a tax residency. In your example, at first you pay taxes in Germany and if Estonian taxes are bigger, you pay the difference there.
    - Archelaos 3y ago
      I am partly working for an Italian company from Germany. Billing is very simple. I invoice the Italian company according to the so-called reverse charge procedure: My invoice does not include VAT, but only the European VAT number of my and the customer's company. The customer must settle the VAT with his tax office. I only have to inform my tax office at regular intervals about the turnover with the individual companies, so that the European tax authorities can check whether the customer has declared his taxes correctly. I invoice via my own company. But this is not mandatory. You can also apply for a VAT number as an individual and follow the same procedure. I did this before I set up the company.
      - gituliar 3y ago
        This is because you run your own company. Things are different if one works for a company as an employee.
- vimy 3y ago
  There are rules to deal with this. Lots of French people near the border work in Belgium for example. They are even actively recruited.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Yeah, but those rules are in place mostly to accomodate cross border commuters. I can't easily be employed by a Belgian comapny while living and working in Portugal same as those living in Belgium, but involves extra hoops like either me working as a LLC or the company setting up an office in Portugal or hiring me through a local Porthughese third party, adn most caompnies don't want this hassle just for one employee. I'm not in Portugal, that was just for the sake of an example.
gituliar 3y ago
In EU since Jul'23 cross-border remote work is free of extra taxes and similar obligation if done up to 50% abroad. One can come to Germany for 3 days and come back to his country to work for 2 days remotely and spend weekend. More here https://socialsecurity.belgium.be/en/internationally-active/cross-border-telework-eu-eea-and-switzerland https://socialsecurity.belgium.be/en/internationally-active/...
- mathverse 3y ago
  Unfortunately this is effectively useless as you need to submit your employees one by one to get this exception. I know of an employer ($4bn revenue) who said this is simply not feasible. EU bureaucrats are just stupid.
GrumpySloth 3y ago
Most of German job offers I’ve seen require proficiency in the German language. That’s unlike offers from Norway, Sweden, Denmark, or Israel, where you’re only required to speak English. Nothing else is ever even suggested in those offers. My sister works in Germany and says that while Germans are pretty easy to talk to in English on the street, in a shop etc., they’re reluctant to do so in a work context and she gets irritated looks when she only speaks at B1 level. Germany is pretty uniquely hostile to foreigners in that regard. I suspect that the requirement you’re speaking of is set up mainly to filter out those who don’t speak German very well.

devdude1337 3y ago

Many managers I got to know have a hard time expressing themselves in English properly. They fear miscommunication and the administrative work connected to non-German employees.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

That's in every EU country for tax and social security reasons, they want you to also be a tax resident there because that dicatates your tax, labor laws and employee benefits meaning it's familiar and predictable for the company. There's no EU wide citizenship, employee regulations and tax liability for employees but are local for each country. They don't want you earning money in one country but spemding it and taxing it in another. This is where the EU is weaker than the US and will keep missing the mark in software.

askonomm 3y ago
You pay income tax based on where you live though. So I can earn money from Germany, but if I live in Estonia, my taxes go to Estonia. Most remote workers I know are set up as LLC's, and they simply invoice their clients for the work, entirely avoiding any tax or social security issues for the employer, since you the employee have to deal with it yourself in your own country.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Yeah, you can but as LLCs, not as direct employees.
  - askonomm 3y ago
    Well yes, EU/Europe is a collection of many independent countries, unlike U.S which is one country. And you can't work in a country as an employee without having a residence permit in that country. The comparison to U.S here makes absolutely no sense.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >The comparison to U.S here makes absolutely no sense. Why not? My ex German boss moved to the US to work for a company there and since the position is remote, he can live and work in any state he wants. You can't do that in the EU which limits labor mobility which hurts the EU economy and innovation versus the US.
      - askonomm 3y ago
        United States is one country. European Union is not a country, it is a collection of many independent countries with separate laws, languages, cultures, governments. You can also live and work from any corner of the same country in EU if you want, provided that your job is also in the same country, just like in the U.S. This is not any different. What you're saying is like can you work for a Canadian company while living in the U.S? Or an Argentinian company while living in the U.S? I don't think so. So I fail to see how U.S is somehow better here, and you're comparing European Union to 1 country, which is just ridiculous, since EU is not a country. European Union "states" are not the same as U.S states. They are actual countries.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        I never said the EU is a country (nor does it need to be to fulfill my point), but as an economic block, if it wishes to compete with the US in terms of economy and innovation, it needs to do better in terms of labor mobility, and the current status quo is holding it back. I hope my point of what I originally meant is clear now and you don't need to explain anymore about why the EU is not a country like the US.
- gituliar 3y ago
  At first you pay taxes in the country the company you work for is registered (there might be b2b options, which might differ). Then you pay rest in the country where you have a tax residency. In your example, at first you pay taxes in Germany and if Estonian taxes are bigger, you pay the difference there.
  - Archelaos 3y ago
    I am partly working for an Italian company from Germany. Billing is very simple. I invoice the Italian company according to the so-called reverse charge procedure: My invoice does not include VAT, but only the European VAT number of my and the customer's company. The customer must settle the VAT with his tax office. I only have to inform my tax office at regular intervals about the turnover with the individual companies, so that the European tax authorities can check whether the customer has declared his taxes correctly. I invoice via my own company. But this is not mandatory. You can also apply for a VAT number as an individual and follow the same procedure. I did this before I set up the company.
    - gituliar 3y ago
      This is because you run your own company. Things are different if one works for a company as an employee.
vimy 3y ago
There are rules to deal with this. Lots of French people near the border work in Belgium for example. They are even actively recruited.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Yeah, but those rules are in place mostly to accomodate cross border commuters. I can't easily be employed by a Belgian comapny while living and working in Portugal same as those living in Belgium, but involves extra hoops like either me working as a LLC or the company setting up an office in Portugal or hiring me through a local Porthughese third party, adn most caompnies don't want this hassle just for one employee. I'm not in Portugal, that was just for the sake of an example.

gituliar 3y ago

In EU since Jul'23 cross-border remote work is free of extra taxes and similar obligation if done up to 50% abroad. One can come to Germany for 3 days and come back to his country to work for 2 days remotely and spend weekend. More here https://socialsecurity.belgium.be/en/internationally-active/cross-border-telework-eu-eea-and-switzerland https://socialsecurity.belgium.be/en/internationally-active/...

mathverse 3y ago
Unfortunately this is effectively useless as you need to submit your employees one by one to get this exception. I know of an employer ($4bn revenue) who said this is simply not feasible. EU bureaucrats are just stupid.

GrumpySloth 3y ago

Most of German job offers I’ve seen require proficiency in the German language. That’s unlike offers from Norway, Sweden, Denmark, or Israel, where you’re only required to speak English. Nothing else is ever even suggested in those offers. My sister works in Germany and says that while Germans are pretty easy to talk to in English on the street, in a shop etc., they’re reluctant to do so in a work context and she gets irritated looks when she only speaks at B1 level. Germany is pretty uniquely hostile to foreigners in that regard. I suspect that the requirement you’re speaking of is set up mainly to filter out those who don’t speak German very well.