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Freelance developer from Germany here. There is a significant drop in projects and a slowdown in permanent offerings, but no layoff wave like in the US. Demand

Freelance developer from Germany here. There is a significant drop in projects and a slowdown in permanent offerings, but no layoff wave like in the US. Demand is still high but due to the current recession most companies delay hiring for now. From my point of view there is also a skill-missmatch in Germany. While firms look for the usual most modern tech stacks, workforce is often conservative, staying years or even decades at one company with outdated technology. Hiring non-EU citizens is almost impossible because of the bureaucracy. So, in Germany the situation is complicated and different from the US.

askonomm 3y ago
Most of the remote jobs I see from Germany also hire only those who live in Germany, so it seems to me that Germans don't even want EU citizens, just Germans.
- devdude1337 3y ago
  Many managers I got to know have a hard time expressing themselves in English properly. They fear miscommunication and the administrative work connected to non-German employees.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  That's in every EU country for tax and social security reasons, they want you to also be a tax resident there because that dicatates your tax, labor laws and employee benefits meaning it's familiar and predictable for the company. There's no EU wide citizenship, employee regulations and tax liability for employees but are local for each country. They don't want you earning money in one country but spemding it and taxing it in another. This is where the EU is weaker than the US and will keep missing the mark in software.
  - askonomm 3y ago
    You pay income tax based on where you live though. So I can earn money from Germany, but if I live in Estonia, my taxes go to Estonia. Most remote workers I know are set up as LLC's, and they simply invoice their clients for the work, entirely avoiding any tax or social security issues for the employer, since you the employee have to deal with it yourself in your own country.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      Yeah, you can but as LLCs, not as direct employees.
      - askonomm 3y ago
        Well yes, EU/Europe is a collection of many independent countries, unlike U.S which is one country. And you can't work in a country as an employee without having a residence permit in that country. The comparison to U.S here makes absolutely no sense.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >The comparison to U.S here makes absolutely no sense. Why not? My ex German boss moved to the US to work for a company there and since the position is remote, he can live and work in any state he wants. You can't do that in the EU which limits labor mobility which hurts the EU economy and innovation versus the US.
        askonomm 3y ago
        United States is one country. European Union is not a country, it is a collection of many independent countries with separate laws, languages, cultures, governments. You can also live and work from any corner of the same country in EU if you want, provided that your job is also in the same country, just like in the U.S. This is not any different. What you're saying is like can you work for a Canadian company while living in the U.S? Or an Argentinian company while living in the U.S? I don't think so. So I fail to see how U.S is somehow better here, and you're comparing European Union to 1 country, which is just ridiculous, since EU is not a country. European Union "states" are not the same as U.S states. They are actual countries.
- gituliar 3y ago
  In EU since Jul'23 cross-border remote work is free of extra taxes and similar obligation if done up to 50% abroad. One can come to Germany for 3 days and come back to his country to work for 2 days remotely and spend weekend. More here https://socialsecurity.belgium.be/en/internationally-active/cross-border-telework-eu-eea-and-switzerland https://socialsecurity.belgium.be/en/internationally-active/...
  - mathverse 3y ago
    Unfortunately this is effectively useless as you need to submit your employees one by one to get this exception. I know of an employer ($4bn revenue) who said this is simply not feasible. EU bureaucrats are just stupid.
- GrumpySloth 3y ago
  Most of German job offers I’ve seen require proficiency in the German language. That’s unlike offers from Norway, Sweden, Denmark, or Israel, where you’re only required to speak English. Nothing else is ever even suggested in those offers. My sister works in Germany and says that while Germans are pretty easy to talk to in English on the street, in a shop etc., they’re reluctant to do so in a work context and she gets irritated looks when she only speaks at B1 level. Germany is pretty uniquely hostile to foreigners in that regard. I suspect that the requirement you’re speaking of is set up mainly to filter out those who don’t speak German very well.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Hiring non-EU citizens is almost impossible because of the bureaucracy. We want to water down the already mediocre wages even more? If you can't find workers across the whole 448 million EU block willing to work for you, you're doing something wrong.
- devdude1337 3y ago
  What makes you think that developers from Brazil, Vietnam, Canada, Egypt or the US would demand so much lower wages? I helped companies onboarding people from all over the globe, and every developer (at least those we met and signed) know their worth.
  - jamil7 3y ago
    Because if people can compete on wages due to lower COL, they will, and some companies will reward that.
    - 698969 3y ago
      Immigrants don't get a lower COL, they live in the same place and pay the same taxes. If anything their COL is higher because of the fees related to being an immigrant, they lose out on benefits and on sharing fixed costs with the family.
      - jamil7 3y ago
        I’m aware, I’m an immigrant. The thread is discussing outsourcing to lower COL areas not immigration (at least that’s how I interpreted it).
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >and every developer (at least those we met and signed) know their worth What about those you didn't sign? What about the SW bodyshops aka visa shops, who pray on desperate foreigners from broken countries trying to emigrate at any cost? I know more of those sleezy bodyshops than I have fingers on my hands to count. I never said your comapny does this, but you can't pretend immigration wage dumping doesn't exist and that many companyes aren't exploiting it. You also can't tell me with a straight face that flooding the market with more workers doesn't lower wages as per the supply/demand of the market.
drinchev 3y ago
Note that we also had COVID and shifted to remote gigs in Germany. This means that we compete with people located in smaller cities or even villages which probably have a pretty good pay rate bump.
jamil7 3y ago
I'm also a freelance developer living in Germany. I've been lucky enough to be on a fairly large, ongoing project for the last year, so I haven't been affected. But new project inquiries/leads have basically dropped to zero for me. From work, to housing, it feels like the population is in "wait and see" mode.
oytis 3y ago
What is the bureaucracy in question? Required salary for the blue card is really low now, especially for tech workers, so basically you just go ahead and hire as I understand.
- devdude1337 3y ago
  You can of course hire a contractor and tax them as usual business costs. But for a permanent position the employee needs a European Social ID, a Tax ID, health care account and a bank account. All this is needed before you can pay the employee’s first loan.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- nicbou 3y ago
  I run a website about this for a living. 1. It takes forever to get a residence permit and get permission to start working. 2. It's increasingly difficult to find housing, which is required for the residence permit. 3. The bureaucracy is notoriously slow and outdated, and full of catch-22 situations. It's especially apparent when you need everything at once. 4. The language barrier makes everything harder. In other words, if you meet all the requirements, you're looking at a multi-month slog before you're finally allowed to start working. People sometimes lose their job before they start due to the immigration office delays.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

askonomm 3y ago

Most of the remote jobs I see from Germany also hire only those who live in Germany, so it seems to me that Germans don't even want EU citizens, just Germans.

devdude1337 3y ago
Many managers I got to know have a hard time expressing themselves in English properly. They fear miscommunication and the administrative work connected to non-German employees.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
That's in every EU country for tax and social security reasons, they want you to also be a tax resident there because that dicatates your tax, labor laws and employee benefits meaning it's familiar and predictable for the company. There's no EU wide citizenship, employee regulations and tax liability for employees but are local for each country. They don't want you earning money in one country but spemding it and taxing it in another. This is where the EU is weaker than the US and will keep missing the mark in software.
- askonomm 3y ago
  You pay income tax based on where you live though. So I can earn money from Germany, but if I live in Estonia, my taxes go to Estonia. Most remote workers I know are set up as LLC's, and they simply invoice their clients for the work, entirely avoiding any tax or social security issues for the employer, since you the employee have to deal with it yourself in your own country.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Yeah, you can but as LLCs, not as direct employees.
    - askonomm 3y ago
      Well yes, EU/Europe is a collection of many independent countries, unlike U.S which is one country. And you can't work in a country as an employee without having a residence permit in that country. The comparison to U.S here makes absolutely no sense.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >The comparison to U.S here makes absolutely no sense. Why not? My ex German boss moved to the US to work for a company there and since the position is remote, he can live and work in any state he wants. You can't do that in the EU which limits labor mobility which hurts the EU economy and innovation versus the US.
        askonomm 3y ago
        United States is one country. European Union is not a country, it is a collection of many independent countries with separate laws, languages, cultures, governments. You can also live and work from any corner of the same country in EU if you want, provided that your job is also in the same country, just like in the U.S. This is not any different. What you're saying is like can you work for a Canadian company while living in the U.S? Or an Argentinian company while living in the U.S? I don't think so. So I fail to see how U.S is somehow better here, and you're comparing European Union to 1 country, which is just ridiculous, since EU is not a country. European Union "states" are not the same as U.S states. They are actual countries.
gituliar 3y ago
In EU since Jul'23 cross-border remote work is free of extra taxes and similar obligation if done up to 50% abroad. One can come to Germany for 3 days and come back to his country to work for 2 days remotely and spend weekend. More here https://socialsecurity.belgium.be/en/internationally-active/cross-border-telework-eu-eea-and-switzerland https://socialsecurity.belgium.be/en/internationally-active/...
- mathverse 3y ago
  Unfortunately this is effectively useless as you need to submit your employees one by one to get this exception. I know of an employer ($4bn revenue) who said this is simply not feasible. EU bureaucrats are just stupid.
GrumpySloth 3y ago
Most of German job offers I’ve seen require proficiency in the German language. That’s unlike offers from Norway, Sweden, Denmark, or Israel, where you’re only required to speak English. Nothing else is ever even suggested in those offers. My sister works in Germany and says that while Germans are pretty easy to talk to in English on the street, in a shop etc., they’re reluctant to do so in a work context and she gets irritated looks when she only speaks at B1 level. Germany is pretty uniquely hostile to foreigners in that regard. I suspect that the requirement you’re speaking of is set up mainly to filter out those who don’t speak German very well.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>Hiring non-EU citizens is almost impossible because of the bureaucracy. We want to water down the already mediocre wages even more? If you can't find workers across the whole 448 million EU block willing to work for you, you're doing something wrong.

devdude1337 3y ago
What makes you think that developers from Brazil, Vietnam, Canada, Egypt or the US would demand so much lower wages? I helped companies onboarding people from all over the globe, and every developer (at least those we met and signed) know their worth.
- jamil7 3y ago
  Because if people can compete on wages due to lower COL, they will, and some companies will reward that.
  - 698969 3y ago
    Immigrants don't get a lower COL, they live in the same place and pay the same taxes. If anything their COL is higher because of the fees related to being an immigrant, they lose out on benefits and on sharing fixed costs with the family.
    - jamil7 3y ago
      I’m aware, I’m an immigrant. The thread is discussing outsourcing to lower COL areas not immigration (at least that’s how I interpreted it).
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >and every developer (at least those we met and signed) know their worth What about those you didn't sign? What about the SW bodyshops aka visa shops, who pray on desperate foreigners from broken countries trying to emigrate at any cost? I know more of those sleezy bodyshops than I have fingers on my hands to count. I never said your comapny does this, but you can't pretend immigration wage dumping doesn't exist and that many companyes aren't exploiting it. You also can't tell me with a straight face that flooding the market with more workers doesn't lower wages as per the supply/demand of the market.

drinchev 3y ago

Note that we also had COVID and shifted to remote gigs in Germany. This means that we compete with people located in smaller cities or even villages which probably have a pretty good pay rate bump.

jamil7 3y ago

I'm also a freelance developer living in Germany. I've been lucky enough to be on a fairly large, ongoing project for the last year, so I haven't been affected. But new project inquiries/leads have basically dropped to zero for me. From work, to housing, it feels like the population is in "wait and see" mode.

oytis 3y ago

What is the bureaucracy in question? Required salary for the blue card is really low now, especially for tech workers, so basically you just go ahead and hire as I understand.

devdude1337 3y ago
You can of course hire a contractor and tax them as usual business costs. But for a permanent position the employee needs a European Social ID, a Tax ID, health care account and a bank account. All this is needed before you can pay the employee’s first loan.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
nicbou 3y ago
I run a website about this for a living. 1. It takes forever to get a residence permit and get permission to start working. 2. It's increasingly difficult to find housing, which is required for the residence permit. 3. The bureaucracy is notoriously slow and outdated, and full of catch-22 situations. It's especially apparent when you need everything at once. 4. The language barrier makes everything harder. In other words, if you meet all the requirements, you're looking at a multi-month slog before you're finally allowed to start working. People sometimes lose their job before they start due to the immigration office delays.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]