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Must there be an alternative? What if the world is not ethical by design? What does the evidence say about it?

by forward1 3y ago

radiator 3y ago
This is quite deep. And delivered in socratic style, nonetheless.
- forward1 3y ago
  Yet past the sarcasm, you're not able to offer a compelling counter-argument. I wonder, why is that?
freedomben 3y ago
Fair point, but if we're stretching the definition to the point where nothing can be ethical, then there isn't any meaning to the word "ethical" as it relates to a binary "is" or "is not." If we agree that nothing can be fully "ethical," there still should be some continuum on which to place the current system, unless you contend that every system and/or action is ethically equal, which I would further contend erases any meaning of the word rendering the premise moot. So that said, is there any system that is more ethical than the current?
- forward1 3y ago
  We're not "stretching" anything. I made a simple assertion: business cannot be ethical, but it is inherently exploitative. I asked for examples of businesses where this is not the case. Instead of examples, I got back screetching, whining and whataboutism. People would rather bury their head in the sand and think they're acting virtuously in this world. The cognitive dissonance here is frankly alarming, if it weren't so expected for entitled first-world engineers.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    > I asked for examples of businesses where this is not the case. Instead of examples, I got back screetching, whining and whataboutism. Please, point out where I did any of that sort. And I asked for an example of a system that is more ethical, and got nothing but dodging and bitching. I don't think you have any ground to stand on to demand examples (certainly from me, who if you care to read again I'm not disputing your position that business can't be ethical, so it makes zero sense to ask me for an example). It seems unreasonable to expect of others what you aren't willing to give yourself. Dare I say that's ... unethical? If you want to complain about the real world, then offer solutions that work in the real world. We can then consider and debate them and maybe get somewhere. If you just want to make philosophical contemplations, I'm actually up for that, but not if you aren't going to even bother getting your arguments straight. You just look like a troll in that case. Actually I changed my mind. I am disputing your contention and here is my example. Please point out where the unethical parts are. Person a and person b are stranded on an island in the South Pacific. There are no other humans around. Person A gets pretty good at catching fish, while person b gets pretty good at harvesting coconuts. Individually, person a can catch six fish and harvest two coconuts. Person b can catch one fish and harvest eight coconuts. Person b is concerned about not getting enough protein, so they approach person a and offer to trade two coconuts for one fish. Person a Agrees, and a mutually agreeable business transaction has taken place. Both parties are better off than they were before. What part of this is unethical? By the way, please don't take offense by any of this. You seem to have thick enough skin to trade barbs, and honestly this has been an interesting discussion (minus some unneeded name calling but that's a minor detail between friends like us)
    - forward1 3y ago
      It is telling the only example of an ethical business is a contrived hypothetical scenario entirely removed from objective reality. What makes it epically hilarious is it is also based on a completely false assertion "person b" needs protein from fish, because they cannot get it from coconut. Be sure to check the following links before you start clamoring about amino acids, too. https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/170169/nutrients https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/170169/n... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234922/table/ttt00008/?report=objectonly https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234922/table/ttt00008/...
  - therealdrag0 3y ago
    Do you think you act virtuously in this world?
    - forward1 3y ago
      It does not matter what I think; objectively and indisputably my existence in the world, especially in a first-world country, has an enormously negative impact on the planet. And I'm an individual with a conscience - now imagine a business with diversified shareholders!
  - Turing_Machine 3y ago
    > I made a simple assertion: business cannot be ethical, but it is inherently exploitative. > I asked for examples of businesses where this is not the case. It doesn't work that way. You made the assertion, so the burden of proof is on you.
    - forward1 3y ago
      But you only quoted the first part of my statement and not the proof, which I did state: > All business [...] relies on hiding and externalizing costs of production unto the environment, a vulnerable population, or other forms of legal/tax trickery. Are you aware of a business which does not have any externalized costs of production which have a negative impact on someone or something?
      - Turing_Machine 3y ago
        > But you only quoted the first part of my statement Yes, the part where you made the unsupported assertion. > not the proof Nonsense. Your "proof" relies on a non-standard definition which you have pulled straight out of your ass.
        forward1 3y ago
        So you're not aware of an ethical business, and cannot provide examples here. I understand, thank you for helping me drive my point home!
therealdrag0 3y ago
Funnily I agree with this. But where you go with it sounds like a stubborn “iam14andthisisdeep”. Language and values should be useful for us to make decisions on. Saying everything is bad and there’s no alternative can be true in a sense but it is not useful, and in most discussions just sounds inane.
- forward1 3y ago
  Yet the true mental adolescence and gymnastics through this post is the abject failure to furnish even one example of a business which can be considered ethical, instead choosing to believe the false notion we can live, work and shop without consequence.
  - therealdrag0 3y ago
    Maybe you’re missing the point. This is like having a conversation with a nihilist. Yes objectively there is no meaning in the universe. It’s all made up. Now what? We have to move on from that. We live in fictions and narratives that are useful for our success. Just calling everything unethical isn’t useful beyond a dorm room mental exercise.
    - forward1 3y ago
      Why does recognizing cruelty and injustice the world have to be "useful"?
      - therealdrag0 3y ago
        I don’t think it does! But you shouldn’t be surprised when people are operating under a different framework when engaging with the world. And discussions won’t go anywhere trying to get different conclusions out of different starting points and motives. If everything is unethical then nothing matters, but people don’t want nothing to matter so they construct shades of grey to make choices and judgements on. Your “um actually everything is unethical” is irrelevant to the game they’re playing. Not to mention it’s absurd a conversation this long hasn’t pointed out the relativity of ethical judgments or event attempted to define what ethical even means.

Must there be an alternative? What if the world is not ethical by design? What does the evidence say about it?

radiator 3y ago

This is quite deep. And delivered in socratic style, nonetheless.

forward1 3y ago
Yet past the sarcasm, you're not able to offer a compelling counter-argument. I wonder, why is that?

freedomben 3y ago

Fair point, but if we're stretching the definition to the point where nothing can be ethical, then there isn't any meaning to the word "ethical" as it relates to a binary "is" or "is not." If we agree that nothing can be fully "ethical," there still should be some continuum on which to place the current system, unless you contend that every system and/or action is ethically equal, which I would further contend erases any meaning of the word rendering the premise moot. So that said, is there any system that is more ethical than the current?

forward1 3y ago
We're not "stretching" anything. I made a simple assertion: business cannot be ethical, but it is inherently exploitative. I asked for examples of businesses where this is not the case. Instead of examples, I got back screetching, whining and whataboutism. People would rather bury their head in the sand and think they're acting virtuously in this world. The cognitive dissonance here is frankly alarming, if it weren't so expected for entitled first-world engineers.
- freedomben 3y ago
  > I asked for examples of businesses where this is not the case. Instead of examples, I got back screetching, whining and whataboutism. Please, point out where I did any of that sort. And I asked for an example of a system that is more ethical, and got nothing but dodging and bitching. I don't think you have any ground to stand on to demand examples (certainly from me, who if you care to read again I'm not disputing your position that business can't be ethical, so it makes zero sense to ask me for an example). It seems unreasonable to expect of others what you aren't willing to give yourself. Dare I say that's ... unethical? If you want to complain about the real world, then offer solutions that work in the real world. We can then consider and debate them and maybe get somewhere. If you just want to make philosophical contemplations, I'm actually up for that, but not if you aren't going to even bother getting your arguments straight. You just look like a troll in that case. Actually I changed my mind. I am disputing your contention and here is my example. Please point out where the unethical parts are. Person a and person b are stranded on an island in the South Pacific. There are no other humans around. Person A gets pretty good at catching fish, while person b gets pretty good at harvesting coconuts. Individually, person a can catch six fish and harvest two coconuts. Person b can catch one fish and harvest eight coconuts. Person b is concerned about not getting enough protein, so they approach person a and offer to trade two coconuts for one fish. Person a Agrees, and a mutually agreeable business transaction has taken place. Both parties are better off than they were before. What part of this is unethical? By the way, please don't take offense by any of this. You seem to have thick enough skin to trade barbs, and honestly this has been an interesting discussion (minus some unneeded name calling but that's a minor detail between friends like us)
  - forward1 3y ago
    It is telling the only example of an ethical business is a contrived hypothetical scenario entirely removed from objective reality. What makes it epically hilarious is it is also based on a completely false assertion "person b" needs protein from fish, because they cannot get it from coconut. Be sure to check the following links before you start clamoring about amino acids, too. https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/170169/nutrients https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/170169/n... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234922/table/ttt00008/?report=objectonly https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234922/table/ttt00008/...
- therealdrag0 3y ago
  Do you think you act virtuously in this world?
  - forward1 3y ago
    It does not matter what I think; objectively and indisputably my existence in the world, especially in a first-world country, has an enormously negative impact on the planet. And I'm an individual with a conscience - now imagine a business with diversified shareholders!
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
  > I made a simple assertion: business cannot be ethical, but it is inherently exploitative. > I asked for examples of businesses where this is not the case. It doesn't work that way. You made the assertion, so the burden of proof is on you.
  - forward1 3y ago
    But you only quoted the first part of my statement and not the proof, which I did state: > All business [...] relies on hiding and externalizing costs of production unto the environment, a vulnerable population, or other forms of legal/tax trickery. Are you aware of a business which does not have any externalized costs of production which have a negative impact on someone or something?
    - Turing_Machine 3y ago
      > But you only quoted the first part of my statement Yes, the part where you made the unsupported assertion. > not the proof Nonsense. Your "proof" relies on a non-standard definition which you have pulled straight out of your ass.
      - forward1 3y ago
        So you're not aware of an ethical business, and cannot provide examples here. I understand, thank you for helping me drive my point home!

therealdrag0 3y ago

Funnily I agree with this. But where you go with it sounds like a stubborn “iam14andthisisdeep”. Language and values should be useful for us to make decisions on. Saying everything is bad and there’s no alternative can be true in a sense but it is not useful, and in most discussions just sounds inane.

forward1 3y ago
Yet the true mental adolescence and gymnastics through this post is the abject failure to furnish even one example of a business which can be considered ethical, instead choosing to believe the false notion we can live, work and shop without consequence.
- therealdrag0 3y ago
  Maybe you’re missing the point. This is like having a conversation with a nihilist. Yes objectively there is no meaning in the universe. It’s all made up. Now what? We have to move on from that. We live in fictions and narratives that are useful for our success. Just calling everything unethical isn’t useful beyond a dorm room mental exercise.
  - forward1 3y ago
    Why does recognizing cruelty and injustice the world have to be "useful"?
    - therealdrag0 3y ago
      I don’t think it does! But you shouldn’t be surprised when people are operating under a different framework when engaging with the world. And discussions won’t go anywhere trying to get different conclusions out of different starting points and motives. If everything is unethical then nothing matters, but people don’t want nothing to matter so they construct shades of grey to make choices and judgements on. Your “um actually everything is unethical” is irrelevant to the game they’re playing. Not to mention it’s absurd a conversation this long hasn’t pointed out the relativity of ethical judgments or event attempted to define what ethical even means.