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I'm not sure I understand the question. You can virtualize Windows on Apple Silicon[0]. Running Windows natively is entirely up to Microsoft, but I believe they

by axoltl 3y ago

I'm not sure I understand the question. You can virtualize Windows on Apple Silicon[0]. Running Windows natively is entirely up to Microsoft, but I believe they've indicated they have no plans for it. [0]: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-and-m2-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin...

kjkjadksj 3y ago
ARM builds of Windows already exist, seems to me its up to the Apple bootcamp team to update their drivers. I’d guess no one works in that department anymore considering I have had a pending bootcamp update fail to be signed for several years now for my intel mac.
- tonyedgecombe 3y ago
  They did say there would be no bootcamp support for Apple Silicon when it was originally announced.
- smith7018 3y ago
  You might have noticed that you can't exactly purchase an ARM build of Windows, right? That's because Microsoft has an exclusivity deal with Qualcomm for Windows on ARM. Until that's over, there's no way for Apple to legally run Windows on their hardware nor make drivers for the platform. The ball has long been in Microsoft's court.
  - abujazar 3y ago
    I dont't care much for Windows, but I've been virtualizing pre-release arm64 Windows 11 on macOS since 2021.
    - smith7018 3y ago
      But you haven’t been running it natively which is what we’re talking about
    - kjkjadksj 3y ago
      I don’t care much for it either but lazy game devs only know directX it seems. I’m curious about the performance through a virtualization layer though. You think you lose too much performance or do the m series just muscle it through? M3 is over 4Ghz per core now seems plenty beefy.
  - Tsiklon 3y ago
    Microsoft 'authorize' Windows 11 to run on Parallels desktop - https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-and-m2-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin... That website claims that license keys are platform agnostic.
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      I feel some distinctions could be made here. I don't have a horse in any race or even know any of the facts. But it is entirely possible for the keys to be hardware agnostic and for MS to have a deal with Qualcomm restricting getting Windows to run natively on Apple (or other random) hardware. Edit: such a deal would not stop you or I from developing drivers, but it could stop Microsoft from lifting a finger to support that.
      - moondev 3y ago
        https://github.com/AmpereComputing/Windows-11-On-Ampere https://github.com/AmpereComputing/Windows-11-On-Ampere
  - obmelvin 3y ago
    There are rumors that will end later this year - https://stratechery.com/2024/an-interview-with-arm-ceo-rene-haas/ https://stratechery.com/2024/an-interview-with-arm-ceo-rene-... (search for 'exclusive')
  - moondev 3y ago
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ampere-64-core-arm-workstation-runs-windows https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ampere-64-core-arm-worksta...
- jxdxbx 3y ago
  Linux developers didn’t need Apple to do anything to support Linux. Drivers are nice for trackpad, etc though.
  - Cu3PO42 3y ago
    They didn't need anything, but they did get something from Apple. Originally, you could only boot Mach-O images on Apple Silicon, which needed workarounds from the Asahi team, but then Apple added the ability to boot raw images (whatever that means exactly in this context), which Asahi, but notably not Apple itself, is now using.
sys_64738 3y ago
Nested virtualization isn't currently supported by Apple but WSL1 is functional.
- jbverschoor 3y ago
  No hardware support on M1, but it’s available on the rest. No support in the virt/hyper kits yet
moondev 3y ago
Running windows for arm requires standardized EFI firmware https://www.arm.com/architecture/system-architectures/systemready-certification-program/sr https://www.arm.com/architecture/system-architectures/system... Many arm64 devices run windows for arm today, including non Qualcomm devices like ampere devkit, honeycomb lx2 and even raspberry pi. They all have systemready firmware. Apple's firmware is not standardized, compatible or certified as systemready, which is why it can't boot windows for arm. Apple's choice of firmware is up to Apple right?

by axoltl 3y ago

kjkjadksj 3y ago

ARM builds of Windows already exist, seems to me its up to the Apple bootcamp team to update their drivers. I’d guess no one works in that department anymore considering I have had a pending bootcamp update fail to be signed for several years now for my intel mac.

tonyedgecombe 3y ago
They did say there would be no bootcamp support for Apple Silicon when it was originally announced.
smith7018 3y ago
You might have noticed that you can't exactly purchase an ARM build of Windows, right? That's because Microsoft has an exclusivity deal with Qualcomm for Windows on ARM. Until that's over, there's no way for Apple to legally run Windows on their hardware nor make drivers for the platform. The ball has long been in Microsoft's court.
- abujazar 3y ago
  I dont't care much for Windows, but I've been virtualizing pre-release arm64 Windows 11 on macOS since 2021.
  - smith7018 3y ago
    But you haven’t been running it natively which is what we’re talking about
  - kjkjadksj 3y ago
    I don’t care much for it either but lazy game devs only know directX it seems. I’m curious about the performance through a virtualization layer though. You think you lose too much performance or do the m series just muscle it through? M3 is over 4Ghz per core now seems plenty beefy.
- Tsiklon 3y ago
  Microsoft 'authorize' Windows 11 to run on Parallels desktop - https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-and-m2-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin... That website claims that license keys are platform agnostic.
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    I feel some distinctions could be made here. I don't have a horse in any race or even know any of the facts. But it is entirely possible for the keys to be hardware agnostic and for MS to have a deal with Qualcomm restricting getting Windows to run natively on Apple (or other random) hardware. Edit: such a deal would not stop you or I from developing drivers, but it could stop Microsoft from lifting a finger to support that.
    - moondev 3y ago
      https://github.com/AmpereComputing/Windows-11-On-Ampere https://github.com/AmpereComputing/Windows-11-On-Ampere
- obmelvin 3y ago
  There are rumors that will end later this year - https://stratechery.com/2024/an-interview-with-arm-ceo-rene-haas/ https://stratechery.com/2024/an-interview-with-arm-ceo-rene-... (search for 'exclusive')
- moondev 3y ago
  https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ampere-64-core-arm-workstation-runs-windows https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ampere-64-core-arm-worksta...
jxdxbx 3y ago
Linux developers didn’t need Apple to do anything to support Linux. Drivers are nice for trackpad, etc though.
- Cu3PO42 3y ago
  They didn't need anything, but they did get something from Apple. Originally, you could only boot Mach-O images on Apple Silicon, which needed workarounds from the Asahi team, but then Apple added the ability to boot raw images (whatever that means exactly in this context), which Asahi, but notably not Apple itself, is now using.

sys_64738 3y ago

Nested virtualization isn't currently supported by Apple but WSL1 is functional.

jbverschoor 3y ago
No hardware support on M1, but it’s available on the rest. No support in the virt/hyper kits yet

moondev 3y ago

Running windows for arm requires standardized EFI firmware https://www.arm.com/architecture/system-architectures/systemready-certification-program/sr https://www.arm.com/architecture/system-architectures/system... Many arm64 devices run windows for arm today, including non Qualcomm devices like ampere devkit, honeycomb lx2 and even raspberry pi. They all have systemready firmware. Apple's firmware is not standardized, compatible or certified as systemready, which is why it can't boot windows for arm. Apple's choice of firmware is up to Apple right?