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I’ve always said this! Make daytime energy 100x cheaper and the market will respond. Appliances will start building in batteries, behaviors will change , and w

I’ve always said this! Make daytime energy 100x cheaper and the market will respond. Appliances will start building in batteries, behaviors will change , and who knows what else the market will come up with.

DennisP 3y ago
That's just externalizing costs though. Instead of building a large battery at the power station, you're building lots of little batteries everywhere else. Even demand management can be an externalized cost. If a factory shuts down half the time, then you need twice as many factories to produce the same stuff.
- tialaramex 3y ago
  > If a factory shuts down half the time, then you need twice as many factories to produce the same stuff. No. It means you might need twice as much of whatever the bottleneck is, assuming that's a real time manufacturing resource which it might well not be. You definitely don't need twice as many whole factories. And if that bottlebeck isn't energy intensive that's not the problem at all, you can just re-arrange the energy intensive parts and you won't even need more factory.
- tshaddox 3y ago
  I'm not sure I would call it "externalizing costs" if the only change was making daytime energy significantly cheaper (and not increasing off-peak energy prices). You could simply not add any batteries and your costs would still go down. You would presumably only decide to add batteries if the cost of doing so was less than the money you'd save by shifting energy usage to cheaper times.
AnthonyMouse 3y ago
How is daytime energy supposed to get 100x cheaper and still allow solar, which only generates during the daytime, to recover its costs? Unless you mean for the nighttime price to increase by a huge factor, but then how would that out-compete existing technologies for generation at night?
- winter_blue 3y ago
  I think he means solar panels becoming so cheap that the total cost of solar is 1/100 of nighttime energy sources.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    Even if the panels were free, you couldn't cover the labor to install them for that.
    - IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
      or the land. A lot of people seem to forget that...
- sheepybloke 3y ago
  You get a larger market share of the total energy consumption/payments to be during the day. E.g. because solar is cheaper, I shift my usage so that all of my energy costs are during the day, and if a majority of people do that, there will be enough money to keep the businesses afloat.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    "Lose money on every kWh but make it up on volume" doesn't actually work. The most electricity should cost at night is approximately what it does now, because you can get that from nuclear or hydro, and why wouldn't you unless you have an alternative that costs less than that? The lowest sustainable daytime price has to pay for the panels, the labor to install them, the land, maintenance, loan interest etc. And a significant part of the consumer price for all sources is the distribution grid. The price difference is not going to be a factor of 100, and you'd be lucky to get a factor of 2 and still be able to pay back your costs, no matter how cheap the panels themselves get.
    - ben_w 3y ago
      > The price difference is not going to be a factor of 100, and you'd be lucky to get a factor of 2 and still be able to pay back your costs, no matter how cheap the panels themselves get. Perhaps not x100, but likely more than you think too, as european domestic PV installation costs were significantly lower than US installation costs last time I compared them. I'm not sure what installation costs are now, but here in Germany several local supermarkets are selling PV systems you can install yourself on your apartment balcony for €199: https://www.archyde.com/the-lidl-parkside-solar-panel-review-affordable-and-impressive-performance/ https://www.archyde.com/the-lidl-parkside-solar-panel-review... I've seen other things like this with batteries for a similar price, though I can't remember the brand or exact specs.
chris222 3y ago
HVDC transmission can help here as well.
opo 3y ago
Who has ever said that solar/wind or any other form of power is going to be 100 times cheaper than what we have now?
- adrianN 3y ago
  I think your parent is not comparing to right now, but is comparing times of abundance with times of scarcity.

DennisP 3y ago

That's just externalizing costs though. Instead of building a large battery at the power station, you're building lots of little batteries everywhere else. Even demand management can be an externalized cost. If a factory shuts down half the time, then you need twice as many factories to produce the same stuff.

tialaramex 3y ago
> If a factory shuts down half the time, then you need twice as many factories to produce the same stuff. No. It means you might need twice as much of whatever the bottleneck is, assuming that's a real time manufacturing resource which it might well not be. You definitely don't need twice as many whole factories. And if that bottlebeck isn't energy intensive that's not the problem at all, you can just re-arrange the energy intensive parts and you won't even need more factory.
tshaddox 3y ago
I'm not sure I would call it "externalizing costs" if the only change was making daytime energy significantly cheaper (and not increasing off-peak energy prices). You could simply not add any batteries and your costs would still go down. You would presumably only decide to add batteries if the cost of doing so was less than the money you'd save by shifting energy usage to cheaper times.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

How is daytime energy supposed to get 100x cheaper and still allow solar, which only generates during the daytime, to recover its costs? Unless you mean for the nighttime price to increase by a huge factor, but then how would that out-compete existing technologies for generation at night?

winter_blue 3y ago
I think he means solar panels becoming so cheap that the total cost of solar is 1/100 of nighttime energy sources.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  Even if the panels were free, you couldn't cover the labor to install them for that.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
    or the land. A lot of people seem to forget that...
sheepybloke 3y ago
You get a larger market share of the total energy consumption/payments to be during the day. E.g. because solar is cheaper, I shift my usage so that all of my energy costs are during the day, and if a majority of people do that, there will be enough money to keep the businesses afloat.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  "Lose money on every kWh but make it up on volume" doesn't actually work. The most electricity should cost at night is approximately what it does now, because you can get that from nuclear or hydro, and why wouldn't you unless you have an alternative that costs less than that? The lowest sustainable daytime price has to pay for the panels, the labor to install them, the land, maintenance, loan interest etc. And a significant part of the consumer price for all sources is the distribution grid. The price difference is not going to be a factor of 100, and you'd be lucky to get a factor of 2 and still be able to pay back your costs, no matter how cheap the panels themselves get.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    > The price difference is not going to be a factor of 100, and you'd be lucky to get a factor of 2 and still be able to pay back your costs, no matter how cheap the panels themselves get. Perhaps not x100, but likely more than you think too, as european domestic PV installation costs were significantly lower than US installation costs last time I compared them. I'm not sure what installation costs are now, but here in Germany several local supermarkets are selling PV systems you can install yourself on your apartment balcony for €199: https://www.archyde.com/the-lidl-parkside-solar-panel-review-affordable-and-impressive-performance/ https://www.archyde.com/the-lidl-parkside-solar-panel-review... I've seen other things like this with batteries for a similar price, though I can't remember the brand or exact specs.

chris222 3y ago

HVDC transmission can help here as well.

opo 3y ago

Who has ever said that solar/wind or any other form of power is going to be 100 times cheaper than what we have now?

adrianN 3y ago
I think your parent is not comparing to right now, but is comparing times of abundance with times of scarcity.