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I invested in several wind projects. They've yet to show any returns. I've invested in 27 oil wells. Four of them hit big, and I recovered all of my loses from

I invested in several wind projects. They've yet to show any returns. I've invested in 27 oil wells. Four of them hit big, and I recovered all of my loses from 23 other wells. I continue to get checks from those 4 wells after years. I will continue to invest in oil and gas. I am not saying I'm not going to invest in solar and wind again, but until I see returns on my investments I've made, I'm not putting a dime more into it. I am not the only one with this position. You don't invest to lose money. They sold investors over the past 15 years their idea that they would make money off this alternative energy, and we're not. The big guys are taking the little guys money, divesting, and leaving us holding the bag of crap. The costs for solar and wind are exorbitant compared to oil and gas. A turbine costs twice what well does, and it takes almost 20 years to recover the investment. People need to understand what is happening, and the reality of alternative investments.

fao_ 3y ago
Right, which is why the UN released a study saying that a shift in economic systems is required if we actually want to put in the work to not murder entire ecosystems.
- mista2nith 3y ago
  My opinion of capitalism is infinitely higher than my opinion of the UN though What they did to Haiti was horrible
- cptaj 3y ago
  Yeah, we require a shift in the system that kneecapped nuclear energy through pointless regulation.
axblount 3y ago
> I've invested in 27 oil wells. > The big guys are taking the little guys money, divesting, and leaving us holding the bag of crap. You're not one of the little guys. You're not the one who's going to be left holding the bag. The real "bag" isn't underperforming investments. It's ecosystem collapse.
- seafoam 3y ago
  There are a billion people in Asia who want but do not have air conditioning and cars.
  - malfist 3y ago
    Okay?
  - deviantbit 3y ago
    Go live in Asia.
- malfist 3y ago
  Seriously, talk about having priorities out of order. It's not "how much money can _I_ make". That's a super highway to the tragedy of the commons
giraffe_lady 3y ago
You really think there will be no consequences and you feel comfortable posting this. > People need to understand what is happening We understand what is happening and one day this will be used as evidence to hold you accountable for your role in it. Haters plz: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som...
- RagnarD 3y ago
  You might want to reconsider your smug posturing in light of the fact that your existence is still wholly dependent on hydrocarbons whether you like it or not, whether you hate it or not.
- MaxHoppersGhost 3y ago
  Do you drive or fly or have polyester anything? You’re just as complicit as OP.
- boeingUH60 3y ago
  You want to drag OP to the Hague or something?
zamfi 3y ago
Hmm, interesting. Do you mind indulging in a few questions about how this worked out for you? 1) Is the issue here that the payoff is too slow? E.g., costs X to build a turbine but you only get back 10% of X each year, so it takes decades to get returns---whereas with a well, it costs Y but then with 20% probability you start getting back 50% of Y each year? in other words, the return to a successful well is huge, but there's some risk associated with each one? 2) Or, are wholesale electricity prices going down (because of glut of gas, etc.) and so rosy projections of solar/wind recoupment rates aren't being met? Mostly I'm curious if it's the dynamics of individual projects here that make wells more attractive than alternatives, or if there's something else at play. Thanks (in advance)!
- deviantbit 3y ago
  A1. Most wells are duds. I would say I've had about a 1 in 7 success rate with them. When one does hit, the payout has been understated in the contracts. I've started hiring independent land men to help pick the investments. Make sure you find one that is certified. As for wind, you normally buy into them differently. You don't buy shares, you buy into a partnership. This is the first problem with them. They're taxed multiple times, a franchise tax, state income tax, and federal income tax, then you're taxed. But before even that, you have to buy or lease the land, pay for the electrical lines, ..., then you have transmission costs, ... If it's leased, then the landowner is getting a huge chunk. The lawsuits are ridiculous. They also over sell a project, and give these guys finders fees, and every other kind of fee you can think of for bringing in investors. It is a racket. The turbine itself won't produce enough wholesale electricity to pay for its self for years. That means everyone down the food chain is waiting to get paid. A2. Electricity prices are reflected on the costs of the plants or farms generating the power. The market ultimately determines this price on the other side. You'll have to consult with an economist to understand how that all works. I don't know if I even know how it works. Alternative energy has been sold to make a few people rich. You have the guys that believe the sky is falling (REMEMBER: Greenland was Green) and are perpetuating a lot of this. We have pollution problems, not climate problems. This needs to be put back into perspective. Save the rainforest, protect it, but don't tell people solar is going to stop pollution, and save the rainforest. Stop cutting down the rainforest to put up wind turbines. A well can be capped and cleaned up. Once solar farms have stopped making money, which you will see soon, you will have a horizon of wind turbines falling apart and creating a bigger problem than a well. Energy isn't free. There is no such thing as carbon-neutral energy production.
kylehotchkiss 3y ago
> The costs for solar and wind are exorbitant compared to oil and gas. And we have utilities in one of the most solar-friendly states trying to whittle down the financial incentives for people to even install solar to start with: https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/story/2022-12-15/california-public-utilities-commission-rooftop-solar https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/story/2022-12-... And even more wild is their income based utility bills https://www.kpbs.org/news/local/2023/09/13/californias-future-with-income-based-flat-fee-utility-bills-is-getting-closer https://www.kpbs.org/news/local/2023/09/13/californias-futur... which will further reduce solar interest because people who can now afford it and can get a bill discount will have to pay $$$ just because their income is higher with no relief offered by the panels.
legitster 3y ago
As a die-hard capitalist to my bones, if less carbon is something we need as a society, then we need to tax it. There are other ways to make green energy price competitive like subsidies. But then you could be paying the same amount of money without the guarantee that you are actually offsetting carbon. Give businesses a financial incentive to do it and they will. But acting surprised and getting upset that people are making the best economic decisions for themselves is a loser's game.
cbsmith 3y ago
Like you said, wind takes decades to get ROI. Solar though, at least the right kind of solar project is cheaper than even coal: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/30/us-coal-more-expensive-than-renewable-energy-study https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/30/us-coal-more.... It's crazy how the LCOE for solar has dropped like a stone over the last decade.

fao_ 3y ago

Right, which is why the UN released a study saying that a shift in economic systems is required if we actually want to put in the work to not murder entire ecosystems.

mista2nith 3y ago
My opinion of capitalism is infinitely higher than my opinion of the UN though What they did to Haiti was horrible
cptaj 3y ago
Yeah, we require a shift in the system that kneecapped nuclear energy through pointless regulation.

axblount 3y ago

> I've invested in 27 oil wells. > The big guys are taking the little guys money, divesting, and leaving us holding the bag of crap. You're not one of the little guys. You're not the one who's going to be left holding the bag. The real "bag" isn't underperforming investments. It's ecosystem collapse.

seafoam 3y ago
There are a billion people in Asia who want but do not have air conditioning and cars.
- malfist 3y ago
  Okay?
- deviantbit 3y ago
  Go live in Asia.
malfist 3y ago
Seriously, talk about having priorities out of order. It's not "how much money can _I_ make". That's a super highway to the tragedy of the commons

giraffe_lady 3y ago

You really think there will be no consequences and you feel comfortable posting this. > People need to understand what is happening We understand what is happening and one day this will be used as evidence to hold you accountable for your role in it. Haters plz: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som...

RagnarD 3y ago
You might want to reconsider your smug posturing in light of the fact that your existence is still wholly dependent on hydrocarbons whether you like it or not, whether you hate it or not.
MaxHoppersGhost 3y ago
Do you drive or fly or have polyester anything? You’re just as complicit as OP.
boeingUH60 3y ago
You want to drag OP to the Hague or something?

zamfi 3y ago

Hmm, interesting. Do you mind indulging in a few questions about how this worked out for you? 1) Is the issue here that the payoff is too slow? E.g., costs X to build a turbine but you only get back 10% of X each year, so it takes decades to get returns---whereas with a well, it costs Y but then with 20% probability you start getting back 50% of Y each year? in other words, the return to a successful well is huge, but there's some risk associated with each one? 2) Or, are wholesale electricity prices going down (because of glut of gas, etc.) and so rosy projections of solar/wind recoupment rates aren't being met? Mostly I'm curious if it's the dynamics of individual projects here that make wells more attractive than alternatives, or if there's something else at play. Thanks (in advance)!

deviantbit 3y ago
A1. Most wells are duds. I would say I've had about a 1 in 7 success rate with them. When one does hit, the payout has been understated in the contracts. I've started hiring independent land men to help pick the investments. Make sure you find one that is certified. As for wind, you normally buy into them differently. You don't buy shares, you buy into a partnership. This is the first problem with them. They're taxed multiple times, a franchise tax, state income tax, and federal income tax, then you're taxed. But before even that, you have to buy or lease the land, pay for the electrical lines, ..., then you have transmission costs, ... If it's leased, then the landowner is getting a huge chunk. The lawsuits are ridiculous. They also over sell a project, and give these guys finders fees, and every other kind of fee you can think of for bringing in investors. It is a racket. The turbine itself won't produce enough wholesale electricity to pay for its self for years. That means everyone down the food chain is waiting to get paid. A2. Electricity prices are reflected on the costs of the plants or farms generating the power. The market ultimately determines this price on the other side. You'll have to consult with an economist to understand how that all works. I don't know if I even know how it works. Alternative energy has been sold to make a few people rich. You have the guys that believe the sky is falling (REMEMBER: Greenland was Green) and are perpetuating a lot of this. We have pollution problems, not climate problems. This needs to be put back into perspective. Save the rainforest, protect it, but don't tell people solar is going to stop pollution, and save the rainforest. Stop cutting down the rainforest to put up wind turbines. A well can be capped and cleaned up. Once solar farms have stopped making money, which you will see soon, you will have a horizon of wind turbines falling apart and creating a bigger problem than a well. Energy isn't free. There is no such thing as carbon-neutral energy production.

kylehotchkiss 3y ago

> The costs for solar and wind are exorbitant compared to oil and gas. And we have utilities in one of the most solar-friendly states trying to whittle down the financial incentives for people to even install solar to start with: https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/story/2022-12-15/california-public-utilities-commission-rooftop-solar https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/story/2022-12-... And even more wild is their income based utility bills https://www.kpbs.org/news/local/2023/09/13/californias-future-with-income-based-flat-fee-utility-bills-is-getting-closer https://www.kpbs.org/news/local/2023/09/13/californias-futur... which will further reduce solar interest because people who can now afford it and can get a bill discount will have to pay $$$ just because their income is higher with no relief offered by the panels.

legitster 3y ago

As a die-hard capitalist to my bones, if less carbon is something we need as a society, then we need to tax it. There are other ways to make green energy price competitive like subsidies. But then you could be paying the same amount of money without the guarantee that you are actually offsetting carbon. Give businesses a financial incentive to do it and they will. But acting surprised and getting upset that people are making the best economic decisions for themselves is a loser's game.

cbsmith 3y ago

Like you said, wind takes decades to get ROI. Solar though, at least the right kind of solar project is cheaper than even coal: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/30/us-coal-more-expensive-than-renewable-energy-study https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/30/us-coal-more.... It's crazy how the LCOE for solar has dropped like a stone over the last decade.