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They left Gaza in 2005 voluntarily and dismantled Gaza settlements Yes, Israel being a democracy and allowing a variety of views including in the government, ha

They left Gaza in 2005 voluntarily and dismantled Gaza settlements Yes, Israel being a democracy and allowing a variety of views including in the government, has various people saying various things there is no doubt they are trying to destroy Hamas, they have soldiers on the ground dying in combat battling Hamas Your list consists of a number of absurd questions. The answer to all of them is they are happing during combat, as damage as a result of combat. Hamas can surrender any time and combat will cease "In all this, they haven't taken out one single senior Hamas leader in Gaza. NOT ONE. " this is false, clearly, they have taken out multiple battalion commanders. Most Hamas most senior leaders are outside of Gaza and they have taken out some of those too "Consider - making sure 2.3 million people have nothing to lose is a profoundly stupid way to try and fight terrorism" There is no way to fight terrorism other than actually fight terrorism.

mandmandam 3y ago
> There is no way to fight terrorism other than actually fight terrorism. Yet somehow every other nation on Earth manages to do it without killing 10,000 children, destroying 75% of residential buildings, blowing up infrastructure, bombing hospitals into rubble, bulldozing cemetaries, bulldozing injured refugees, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. It's a fact that oppressed people fight back. You can, in fact, stop oppressing them and things work out; like apartheid ending in SA, or like the GFA in Northern Ireland. In neither of those cases was "atrocity upon atrocity" the solution to anything. Really, it's surreal to be having to explain this. It's truly self-evident.
- vasilipupkin 3y ago
  this is false, first of all when there was a fight against ISIS, of course there were civilian casualties. Secondly, Israel has unique security challenges that most nations on Earth do not face. Which nation has a terrorist army on its border ? "oppressed people fight back" is a red herring. Israel left Gaza in 2005, nobody prevented Gaza at that point from becoming paradise, instead of a terrorist haven. And now, with Hamas in charge and vowing to repeat October 7th again and again, Israel has no choice but to go in and eliminate Hamas.
  - mandmandam 3y ago
    There's no Hamas in the West Bank, but Israel have killed 329 people there in the last 3 months. 86 of them children. > nobody prevented Gaza at that point from becoming paradise, instead of a terrorist haven The colonies were removed, but Israel retained control of Gaza's air, land, sea and airwaves. "Preventive strikes" have killed many civilians. Peaceful protests have resulted in murder and maim. There is wall to wall consensus within the international community that Gaza is occupied, including the normally reserved ICRC [0]. > The ICRC considers Gaza to remain occupied Palestinian territory on the basis that Israel still exercises key elements of authority over the strip, including over its borders (airspace, sea and land - at the exception of the border with Egypt). Even though Israel no longer maintains a permanent presence inside the Gaza Strip, it continues to be bound by certain obligations under the law of occupation that are commensurate with the degree to which it exercises control over it. Pretty clear. If you don't like that, you can read the UN Rapporteur Francesca Albanese view on Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territories [1] > And now, with Hamas in charge and vowing to repeat October 7th again and again, Israel has no choice but to go in and eliminate Hamas Again with this nonsense. They're not going after Hamas, they're trying to force Gazans out. You can see their own Minister of Communication, and others, saying this on national TV. [2] > "oppressed people fight back" is a red herring. No, no it isn't. It's a reality. People have a right to fight back against oppression. Calling them "terrorists" doesn't justify genocide - again, the Genocide Convention which you keep ignoring is very clear on that point. I don't know what it would take to break you from this alternate reality that you are in, but I really hope you do. 0 - https://www.icrc.org/en/document/frequently-asked-questions-icrcs-work-israel-and-occupied-territories https://www.icrc.org/en/document/frequently-asked-questions-... 1 - https://www.jurist.org/features/2023/09/06/un-special-rapporteur-israel-palestine/# https://www.jurist.org/features/2023/09/06/un-special-rappor... 2 - https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-uk-slam-inflammatory-call-by-israeli-minister-smotrich-voluntary-emigration-of-gaza/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-uk-slam-inflammatory-call...
    - vasilipupkin 3y ago
      Again wit this nonsense ? You are not engaging with the facts. The fact is of course Israel is going after Hamas, they are literally losing soldiers daily in battles witn Hamas, it’s absurd to deny this People have a right to fight against oppression is a red herring because you are unable to engage with actual facts The actual fact is Israel left Gaza completely. At which point Gazans had a choice. And they chose Hamas which proceeded to continuously attack Israel and fire rockets at it, culminating in October 7th its impossible to deny this simple reality. And this simple reality means Israel has no choice but to defeat Hamas militarily once and for all, which it’s now attempting to do There is no Hamas in the West Bank? This is false, as anyone with a google account can verify. Hamas doesn’t fully control the West Bank, but of course it has a presence there along with other terrorist groups, especially in certain cities like Jenin If you want to understand this conflict, you have to understand the facts first
johnnyworker 3y ago
> The answer to all of them is they are happing during combat, as damage as a result of combat. Turning off water is not combat. Rigging the supreme court with explosives after posing for selfies in it is not combat. Destroying universities and mocking people in Gaza for having no education (when they're not singing that they're no schools in Gaza cuz there are no kids in Gaza) is not combat. IDF soldiers singing about how "there are no innocent civilians" and bragging about how many residential houses they destroyed is not combat. Sniping a 70 year old woman fleeing with a child isn't combat. Shooting at youth, then running over their body with an army truck on camera and leaving them to bleed to death isn't combat. Bombing the tents of refugee camps is not combat. > Hamas can surrender any time and combat will cease Right. So occupying land and blockading Gaza is fine. Supporting Hamas over moderates to get "legitimacy" as Smotrich called it, is fine. But NOW you draw a line, and simply make demands that must be met before we can stop hiding crimes against humanity under the cover of "combat". No. Such arguments, no matter how often we have heard them repeated, are not even a bad attempt, and light of the gravity of the situation that's grave as well.
- vasilipupkin 3y ago
  I beg you people to engage with actual facts. You can't deny that there is combat going on there, what are we actually arguing about. Is Israel obliged to provide water to an enemy entity? In what world does a country attacked by an enemy have an obligation to provide water. Why is Hamas, which is in control of Gaza, not obliged to provide water for its citizens? WHy is it the responsibility of Israel? Nevertheless,they turned the water back on https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-says-it-is-restarting-water-supply-to-southern-gaza-strip/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-says-it-is-restarting-w... "Occupying land and blockading gaza is fine" Israel left Gaza in 2005. The blockade of Gaza was in response to Hamas taking power and immediately engaging in attacks against Israel. WHy do you think Egypt also blockades Gaza? "But NOW you draw a line" Please, engage with facts Israel spent 17 years trying to manage Hamas without engaging in a full on war, despite Hamas repeated attacks against Israel. This strategy completely failed culminating in October 7th. Which showed that Hamas can't be managed, it must be destroyed. That is what is currently going on in Gaza. All this could have been different had Hamas made different choices. But they chose war and war they got. https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-israel-attacks-again-and-again-until-its-destroyed/ https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-re...

mandmandam 3y ago

> There is no way to fight terrorism other than actually fight terrorism. Yet somehow every other nation on Earth manages to do it without killing 10,000 children, destroying 75% of residential buildings, blowing up infrastructure, bombing hospitals into rubble, bulldozing cemetaries, bulldozing injured refugees, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. It's a fact that oppressed people fight back. You can, in fact, stop oppressing them and things work out; like apartheid ending in SA, or like the GFA in Northern Ireland. In neither of those cases was "atrocity upon atrocity" the solution to anything. Really, it's surreal to be having to explain this. It's truly self-evident.

vasilipupkin 3y ago
this is false, first of all when there was a fight against ISIS, of course there were civilian casualties. Secondly, Israel has unique security challenges that most nations on Earth do not face. Which nation has a terrorist army on its border ? "oppressed people fight back" is a red herring. Israel left Gaza in 2005, nobody prevented Gaza at that point from becoming paradise, instead of a terrorist haven. And now, with Hamas in charge and vowing to repeat October 7th again and again, Israel has no choice but to go in and eliminate Hamas.
- mandmandam 3y ago
  There's no Hamas in the West Bank, but Israel have killed 329 people there in the last 3 months. 86 of them children. > nobody prevented Gaza at that point from becoming paradise, instead of a terrorist haven The colonies were removed, but Israel retained control of Gaza's air, land, sea and airwaves. "Preventive strikes" have killed many civilians. Peaceful protests have resulted in murder and maim. There is wall to wall consensus within the international community that Gaza is occupied, including the normally reserved ICRC [0]. > The ICRC considers Gaza to remain occupied Palestinian territory on the basis that Israel still exercises key elements of authority over the strip, including over its borders (airspace, sea and land - at the exception of the border with Egypt). Even though Israel no longer maintains a permanent presence inside the Gaza Strip, it continues to be bound by certain obligations under the law of occupation that are commensurate with the degree to which it exercises control over it. Pretty clear. If you don't like that, you can read the UN Rapporteur Francesca Albanese view on Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territories [1] > And now, with Hamas in charge and vowing to repeat October 7th again and again, Israel has no choice but to go in and eliminate Hamas Again with this nonsense. They're not going after Hamas, they're trying to force Gazans out. You can see their own Minister of Communication, and others, saying this on national TV. [2] > "oppressed people fight back" is a red herring. No, no it isn't. It's a reality. People have a right to fight back against oppression. Calling them "terrorists" doesn't justify genocide - again, the Genocide Convention which you keep ignoring is very clear on that point. I don't know what it would take to break you from this alternate reality that you are in, but I really hope you do. 0 - https://www.icrc.org/en/document/frequently-asked-questions-icrcs-work-israel-and-occupied-territories https://www.icrc.org/en/document/frequently-asked-questions-... 1 - https://www.jurist.org/features/2023/09/06/un-special-rapporteur-israel-palestine/# https://www.jurist.org/features/2023/09/06/un-special-rappor... 2 - https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-uk-slam-inflammatory-call-by-israeli-minister-smotrich-voluntary-emigration-of-gaza/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-uk-slam-inflammatory-call...
  - vasilipupkin 3y ago
    Again wit this nonsense ? You are not engaging with the facts. The fact is of course Israel is going after Hamas, they are literally losing soldiers daily in battles witn Hamas, it’s absurd to deny this People have a right to fight against oppression is a red herring because you are unable to engage with actual facts The actual fact is Israel left Gaza completely. At which point Gazans had a choice. And they chose Hamas which proceeded to continuously attack Israel and fire rockets at it, culminating in October 7th its impossible to deny this simple reality. And this simple reality means Israel has no choice but to defeat Hamas militarily once and for all, which it’s now attempting to do There is no Hamas in the West Bank? This is false, as anyone with a google account can verify. Hamas doesn’t fully control the West Bank, but of course it has a presence there along with other terrorist groups, especially in certain cities like Jenin If you want to understand this conflict, you have to understand the facts first

johnnyworker 3y ago

> The answer to all of them is they are happing during combat, as damage as a result of combat. Turning off water is not combat. Rigging the supreme court with explosives after posing for selfies in it is not combat. Destroying universities and mocking people in Gaza for having no education (when they're not singing that they're no schools in Gaza cuz there are no kids in Gaza) is not combat. IDF soldiers singing about how "there are no innocent civilians" and bragging about how many residential houses they destroyed is not combat. Sniping a 70 year old woman fleeing with a child isn't combat. Shooting at youth, then running over their body with an army truck on camera and leaving them to bleed to death isn't combat. Bombing the tents of refugee camps is not combat. > Hamas can surrender any time and combat will cease Right. So occupying land and blockading Gaza is fine. Supporting Hamas over moderates to get "legitimacy" as Smotrich called it, is fine. But NOW you draw a line, and simply make demands that must be met before we can stop hiding crimes against humanity under the cover of "combat". No. Such arguments, no matter how often we have heard them repeated, are not even a bad attempt, and light of the gravity of the situation that's grave as well.

vasilipupkin 3y ago
I beg you people to engage with actual facts. You can't deny that there is combat going on there, what are we actually arguing about. Is Israel obliged to provide water to an enemy entity? In what world does a country attacked by an enemy have an obligation to provide water. Why is Hamas, which is in control of Gaza, not obliged to provide water for its citizens? WHy is it the responsibility of Israel? Nevertheless,they turned the water back on https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-says-it-is-restarting-water-supply-to-southern-gaza-strip/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-says-it-is-restarting-w... "Occupying land and blockading gaza is fine" Israel left Gaza in 2005. The blockade of Gaza was in response to Hamas taking power and immediately engaging in attacks against Israel. WHy do you think Egypt also blockades Gaza? "But NOW you draw a line" Please, engage with facts Israel spent 17 years trying to manage Hamas without engaging in a full on war, despite Hamas repeated attacks against Israel. This strategy completely failed culminating in October 7th. Which showed that Hamas can't be managed, it must be destroyed. That is what is currently going on in Gaza. All this could have been different had Hamas made different choices. But they chose war and war they got. https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-israel-attacks-again-and-again-until-its-destroyed/ https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-re...