6 ms·

I don't get why solar is so popular. In more northern regions, you get much less light in the winter. You effectively can only generate around one tenth of th

I don't get why solar is so popular. In more northern regions, you get much less light in the winter. You effectively can only generate around one tenth of the energy you can in the summer - this is from experience talking to others who monitor their solar installations. But, you need more energy in the winter. People are in more, using electricity for heat cos it's colder. I'm pointing out that there is a supply/demand reversal. Sure there are sweet spots in spring and autumn, but when you really need energy, you have less. You can mitigate some minor fluctuations with batteries.... Ie you can smoothen things a bit, but you can't really take the summer's excess, to use in the winter. It just seems like a fundamental mismatch, that leaves you exposed, when you need the most amount of support.

dralley 3y ago
>But, you need more energy in the winter. People are in more, using electricity for heat cos it's colder. I'm pointing out that there is a supply/demand reversal. Sure there are sweet spots in spring and autumn, but when you really need energy, you have less. Northern areas tend to use fossil fuels for heating at higher rates, and less heat pumps.
- morsch 3y ago
  Let me introduce you to Scandinavia... https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/10/30/do-heat-pumps-work-in-winter-experts-explain-why-nordic-countries-have-installed-the-most- https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/10/30/do-heat-pumps-work...
megaman821 3y ago
The answer is a bit simple. Only a small amount of Earth's population lives at north European latitudes (https://engaging-data.com/population-latitude-longitude/ https://engaging-data.com/population-latitude-longitude/). Solar is quite effective for the majority of the population, so its adoption rate will have the biggest impact on further climate change.
- switchbak 3y ago
  I get that it's a great solution for much of the world - and that is fantastic. But they were asking about its effectiveness in northern climates during winter (which I also live in). It sounds like your answer is: "it doesn't work there". If so, that's fine, we can focus on other approaches in such climates. What seems like an emerging shortsighted opinion (on HN at least) is: "it's so cheap, just use more". That doesn't really work when: - you're in a place that gets a small fraction of solar radiation during the winter - it's often overcast - the requirement for electricity for heat pumps goes up drastically during this time - the nighttime requirement is even higher, as temps can get to -20 C or lower I can't imagine the system you'd have to build to satisfy such demand with solar and battery (or similar) storage in the worst case, but I don't imagine it's "cheap".
  - megaman821 3y ago
    There are solutions that are carbon-free; wind, enhanced geothermal (if fracking was legal in Europe), and nuclear. Solar electricity imports out of Spain or Morocco seems more feasible that solar situated in northern Europe.
  - cycomanic 3y ago
    The OP was saying: "I don't get why solar is so popular" based on the fact it doesn't work as well in extreme Northern regions where only a tiny fraction of the world's population lives. That's sort of like saying I don't get why boats/ships are so popular because they can't drive on land.
    - switchbak 3y ago
      I literally started with "I get that it's a great solution for much of the world - and that is fantastic." ... so I think I'm on board with what you're saying. I do agree that the OP sounded a little too sour on it though. And yes, I think we can all agree that Solar works well where .. it works well. The issue is many folks are pronouncing it as some kind of a panacea. The reality is that there's a lot of places where it's marginal (and needs effective dispatchable fallbacks) and others where it's just not suitable. Luckily there's comparatively few people that live in those places, so it won't make much of a difference on the environmental bottom line. But for folks like me, these distinctions are important. And "just add more solar" actually isn't a great idea, as it reduces the ROI on each panel, and there's a minimum amount of dispatchable capacity you need to keep online anyway. Sounds like it really does come down to storage at that level, most of which is still progressing to full productization.
ragebol 3y ago
In my native Netherlands, in the summertime there's solar, in winter there's is wind. I have a dynamic energy contract, I pay spot prices + taxes and markup. What solar energy I sell in the summer, I can buy in the winter. With our heat pump, I need to generate about twice as much as I did before we had the heat pump, to match it in money (summer is cheaper than winter at the moment). Watt for watt is not a useful measurement IMO, since I can't store Watts, but I can store euros.
- jjoonathan 3y ago
  This just assumes someone else fixes the storage/overprovision problem, otherwise energy will get cheaper in the summer and more expensive in the winter until storing euros does not work.
  - sigilis 3y ago
    That’s what markets are for: someone else will fix the problem because there’s money in it. It’s generally something you can rely on, that someone will try to get their hands on stored euros.
    - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
      This is literally called magical thinking - there is money in breaking the law of gravity, so what?
      - defrost 3y ago
        Addressing storage | provisioning issues is not breaking the laws of thermodynamics. We're talking aviation industry as a reasonable equivilance here, not magical anti-grav machines. Reddit is really the venue for eponymous comments.
        ClumsyPilot 3y ago
        Actually they are exactly the same thing - seasonal storage with efficiency over 50% is basically magical infinite energy battery. Just like anti-gravity machine, neither breaks the laws of physics, and neither has any known method for an engineer to implement. Currently, you either need preposterous quantity of batteries, or you are stuck creating synthetic/green fuels at efficiencies of ~20% or less.
GaggiX 3y ago
Solar PV systems has reached grid parity in many parts of the world (it's cheap), at a national level renewable energy means energy security and solar is usually used with others power sources like wind and/or hydro.
BobaFloutist 3y ago
People closer to the equator tend to use more energy in the summer than in the winter, since they need more cooling than heating.
tallowen 3y ago
I think solar is becoming popular because it is so much cheaper where it works. One point of disagreement is that you are saying "you need more energy in the winter". Right now, for example, tomato paste is made in a facility that runs year round. The main cost in converting tomatoes into tomato paste is in the thermal cost of energy. Having abundant cheap energy at one time of year will shift the way such industrial processes work so that we use more energy when supply is the highest rather than using the most energy when demand is the highest.
- ETH_start 3y ago
  >Having abundant cheap energy at one time of year will shift the way such industrial processes work so that we use more energy when supply is the highest rather than using the most energy when demand is the highest. That would require leaving a lot of capital idle, while is itself wasteful from both an economic and environmental perspective.
protastus 3y ago
Solar is super cheap, making it a very effective complement to the matrix even though it's not enough by itself, for reasons you mentioned. Every kWh from solar is one kWh less from fossil fuels. It seems inevitable that electricity becomes free when there's sun, because of solar.
v4vvdq 3y ago
In northern (and southern) regions the less light you get in winter, the more you get in summer. It is a zero-sum game.
- olyjohn 3y ago
  You can't take the power you generate in the summer and use it to heat your house in the winter though.
robotnikman 3y ago
One thing I've thought about, how hard would it be to set up a lot of solar panels in a region with 99% good weather (like Arizona) and then supply some of the energy to areas with less favorable weather? Though that would be putting all your eggs in one basket.
- blackbeans 3y ago
  It is possible but traditional power grid lines have quite some losses over longer distances. An expensive HVDC connection would be more efficient. Furthermore Arizona could be too hot and dusty to be ideal. Solar panels work best when they are unobstructed and not too hot.
Aloisius 3y ago
Most homes in the Northern US outside use propane, natural gas, heating oil or wood to heat their homes in the winter, not electricity. Electricity demand in summer in the US is far higher than winter due to air conditioning. Moreover, most of the utility-scale solar generation capacity isn't in the Northern US.
cycomanic 3y ago
> I don't get why solar is so popular. > In more northern regions, you get much less light in the winter. You effectively can only generate around one tenth of the energy you can in the summer - this is from experience talking to others who monitor their solar installations. When we looked at installing solar on our house in Sweden the calculations showed that in winter we'd produce about 20% of the power IIRC. I just had a look for a source and I could only found this [1] which might be more like 10%. That said Sweden is quite extreme, all of the US save Alaska get much more sunlight in winter. [1] https://adelsfors.se/2022/12/29/solar-vs-wind-power-in-sweden-2030/ https://adelsfors.se/2022/12/29/solar-vs-wind-power-in-swede...
wiredfool 3y ago
I've done some math on residential solar in Ireland, on east-west facing pitched roofs, and it looks like a 4-6KW system would be break even in 5-7 years, given the current prices (44c/KWh) and the current subsidies (~2k for a ~8k install cost all in). It's a little complicated because of time of use, and it's unclear if net metering or feed-in rates will continue. While Ireland has a good chunk of renewables, mainly wind, our electricity rates are still driven by gas import prices, so they're 2x what they were a couple years ago.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
Hydrogen could be viable way to do seasonal storage, it's generation reasonably efficient and can be stored in huge quantities. It's also a bit of a trojan horse for traditional energy companies

dralley 3y ago

>But, you need more energy in the winter. People are in more, using electricity for heat cos it's colder. I'm pointing out that there is a supply/demand reversal. Sure there are sweet spots in spring and autumn, but when you really need energy, you have less. Northern areas tend to use fossil fuels for heating at higher rates, and less heat pumps.

morsch 3y ago
Let me introduce you to Scandinavia... https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/10/30/do-heat-pumps-work-in-winter-experts-explain-why-nordic-countries-have-installed-the-most- https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/10/30/do-heat-pumps-work...

megaman821 3y ago

The answer is a bit simple. Only a small amount of Earth's population lives at north European latitudes (https://engaging-data.com/population-latitude-longitude/ https://engaging-data.com/population-latitude-longitude/). Solar is quite effective for the majority of the population, so its adoption rate will have the biggest impact on further climate change.

switchbak 3y ago
I get that it's a great solution for much of the world - and that is fantastic. But they were asking about its effectiveness in northern climates during winter (which I also live in). It sounds like your answer is: "it doesn't work there". If so, that's fine, we can focus on other approaches in such climates. What seems like an emerging shortsighted opinion (on HN at least) is: "it's so cheap, just use more". That doesn't really work when: - you're in a place that gets a small fraction of solar radiation during the winter - it's often overcast - the requirement for electricity for heat pumps goes up drastically during this time - the nighttime requirement is even higher, as temps can get to -20 C or lower I can't imagine the system you'd have to build to satisfy such demand with solar and battery (or similar) storage in the worst case, but I don't imagine it's "cheap".
- megaman821 3y ago
  There are solutions that are carbon-free; wind, enhanced geothermal (if fracking was legal in Europe), and nuclear. Solar electricity imports out of Spain or Morocco seems more feasible that solar situated in northern Europe.
- cycomanic 3y ago
  The OP was saying: "I don't get why solar is so popular" based on the fact it doesn't work as well in extreme Northern regions where only a tiny fraction of the world's population lives. That's sort of like saying I don't get why boats/ships are so popular because they can't drive on land.
  - switchbak 3y ago
    I literally started with "I get that it's a great solution for much of the world - and that is fantastic." ... so I think I'm on board with what you're saying. I do agree that the OP sounded a little too sour on it though. And yes, I think we can all agree that Solar works well where .. it works well. The issue is many folks are pronouncing it as some kind of a panacea. The reality is that there's a lot of places where it's marginal (and needs effective dispatchable fallbacks) and others where it's just not suitable. Luckily there's comparatively few people that live in those places, so it won't make much of a difference on the environmental bottom line. But for folks like me, these distinctions are important. And "just add more solar" actually isn't a great idea, as it reduces the ROI on each panel, and there's a minimum amount of dispatchable capacity you need to keep online anyway. Sounds like it really does come down to storage at that level, most of which is still progressing to full productization.

ragebol 3y ago

In my native Netherlands, in the summertime there's solar, in winter there's is wind. I have a dynamic energy contract, I pay spot prices + taxes and markup. What solar energy I sell in the summer, I can buy in the winter. With our heat pump, I need to generate about twice as much as I did before we had the heat pump, to match it in money (summer is cheaper than winter at the moment). Watt for watt is not a useful measurement IMO, since I can't store Watts, but I can store euros.

jjoonathan 3y ago
This just assumes someone else fixes the storage/overprovision problem, otherwise energy will get cheaper in the summer and more expensive in the winter until storing euros does not work.
- sigilis 3y ago
  That’s what markets are for: someone else will fix the problem because there’s money in it. It’s generally something you can rely on, that someone will try to get their hands on stored euros.
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    This is literally called magical thinking - there is money in breaking the law of gravity, so what?
    - defrost 3y ago
      Addressing storage | provisioning issues is not breaking the laws of thermodynamics. We're talking aviation industry as a reasonable equivilance here, not magical anti-grav machines. Reddit is really the venue for eponymous comments.
      - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
        Actually they are exactly the same thing - seasonal storage with efficiency over 50% is basically magical infinite energy battery. Just like anti-gravity machine, neither breaks the laws of physics, and neither has any known method for an engineer to implement. Currently, you either need preposterous quantity of batteries, or you are stuck creating synthetic/green fuels at efficiencies of ~20% or less.

GaggiX 3y ago

Solar PV systems has reached grid parity in many parts of the world (it's cheap), at a national level renewable energy means energy security and solar is usually used with others power sources like wind and/or hydro.

BobaFloutist 3y ago

People closer to the equator tend to use more energy in the summer than in the winter, since they need more cooling than heating.

tallowen 3y ago

I think solar is becoming popular because it is so much cheaper where it works. One point of disagreement is that you are saying "you need more energy in the winter". Right now, for example, tomato paste is made in a facility that runs year round. The main cost in converting tomatoes into tomato paste is in the thermal cost of energy. Having abundant cheap energy at one time of year will shift the way such industrial processes work so that we use more energy when supply is the highest rather than using the most energy when demand is the highest.

ETH_start 3y ago
>Having abundant cheap energy at one time of year will shift the way such industrial processes work so that we use more energy when supply is the highest rather than using the most energy when demand is the highest. That would require leaving a lot of capital idle, while is itself wasteful from both an economic and environmental perspective.

protastus 3y ago

Solar is super cheap, making it a very effective complement to the matrix even though it's not enough by itself, for reasons you mentioned. Every kWh from solar is one kWh less from fossil fuels. It seems inevitable that electricity becomes free when there's sun, because of solar.

v4vvdq 3y ago

In northern (and southern) regions the less light you get in winter, the more you get in summer. It is a zero-sum game.

olyjohn 3y ago
You can't take the power you generate in the summer and use it to heat your house in the winter though.

robotnikman 3y ago

One thing I've thought about, how hard would it be to set up a lot of solar panels in a region with 99% good weather (like Arizona) and then supply some of the energy to areas with less favorable weather? Though that would be putting all your eggs in one basket.

blackbeans 3y ago
It is possible but traditional power grid lines have quite some losses over longer distances. An expensive HVDC connection would be more efficient. Furthermore Arizona could be too hot and dusty to be ideal. Solar panels work best when they are unobstructed and not too hot.

Aloisius 3y ago

Most homes in the Northern US outside use propane, natural gas, heating oil or wood to heat their homes in the winter, not electricity. Electricity demand in summer in the US is far higher than winter due to air conditioning. Moreover, most of the utility-scale solar generation capacity isn't in the Northern US.

cycomanic 3y ago

> I don't get why solar is so popular. > In more northern regions, you get much less light in the winter. You effectively can only generate around one tenth of the energy you can in the summer - this is from experience talking to others who monitor their solar installations. When we looked at installing solar on our house in Sweden the calculations showed that in winter we'd produce about 20% of the power IIRC. I just had a look for a source and I could only found this [1] which might be more like 10%. That said Sweden is quite extreme, all of the US save Alaska get much more sunlight in winter. [1] https://adelsfors.se/2022/12/29/solar-vs-wind-power-in-sweden-2030/ https://adelsfors.se/2022/12/29/solar-vs-wind-power-in-swede...

wiredfool 3y ago

I've done some math on residential solar in Ireland, on east-west facing pitched roofs, and it looks like a 4-6KW system would be break even in 5-7 years, given the current prices (44c/KWh) and the current subsidies (~2k for a ~8k install cost all in). It's a little complicated because of time of use, and it's unclear if net metering or feed-in rates will continue. While Ireland has a good chunk of renewables, mainly wind, our electricity rates are still driven by gas import prices, so they're 2x what they were a couple years ago.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

Hydrogen could be viable way to do seasonal storage, it's generation reasonably efficient and can be stored in huge quantities. It's also a bit of a trojan horse for traditional energy companies