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you can't put an equal sign on the two. Hamas committed horrible acts for genocidal reasons and subsequently vowed to do it again and again, multiple times in

you can't put an equal sign on the two. Hamas committed horrible acts for genocidal reasons and subsequently vowed to do it again and again, multiple times in speeches of multiple Hamas leaders Israel is trying to destroy Hamas to remove this threat. Hamas has embedded itself in civilian population, Hamas is not coming out to fight man to man in an open field So, yes, as a result of the fact that Hamas is embedded in civilian areas, innocent people die in the fighting. But it's absurd to assign all the responsibility for this to Israel and zero to Hamas. It's absurd to say Hamas committed an atrocity and Israel should do nothing to stop similar atrocities from happening in the future. And if you concede Israel has the right to defend itself, then how is it supposed to do that other than actually go after Hamas?

mandmandam 3y ago
> Israel is trying to destroy Hamas to remove this threat. Are they though? Israel's Minister of Communication just spoke on national TV about the need to make the people of Gaza leave "voluntarily". They want the land. That was always the goal, clearly. Because: How does murdering 20,000 women and children remove the threat of Hamas? How does leveling 75% of residential buildings remove the threat of Hamas? How does salting the earth and destroying all the infrastructure necessary for life remove Hamas? How does bombing historic mosques and churches, or universities and civic buildings remove Hamas? How does blockading food, electricity, internet, essential medicine, and even water remove Hamas? 30,000 Palestinians have been murdered during those war crimes. Israel are bombing and destroying refugee camps, UN shelters, UN schools, humanitarian corridors, and hospitals. In all this, they haven't taken out one single senior Hamas leader in Gaza. NOT ONE. Israel hasn't rescued a single hostage. In fact, when they found three hostages - shirtless, waving white flags and calling out in Hebrew - they murdered them. Can you imagine spending over ten billion dollars, and failing to take out one senior leader or rescue a single hostage? Even when allowed and encouraged by your leadership to kill as many civilians and destroy as much as you need to, to the point where ~90% of the population is now homeless? Really - try, if you can, to imagine that level of failure. The world's fourth largest military, killing 10,000 babies in an effort to save a single hostage or kill a single senior Hamas leader. And failing. And people think this will prevent terror? Absurd. Farcical. I find it hard to believe that anyone is taken in by this - and in fact, most of the world isn't. Even a majority of Americans want a ceasefire, and they're Israel's closest ally. > Hamas has embedded itself in civilian population, Hamas is not coming out to fight man to man in an open field That doesn't excuse war crimes, or genocide. Neither did the atrocities of October 7th. The Genocide Convention, which Israel signed over 70 years ago, is very clear on that fact. > how is it supposed to do that other than actually go after Hamas? Consider - making sure 2.3 million people have nothing to lose is a profoundly stupid way to try and fight terrorism. Israel isn't defending itself - when you invade an occupied land, destroy everything, massacre refugees and kill 5 children every hour for a hundred days straight, that's not defense. It's ethnic cleansing. It's genocide. And denying that makes you a genocide denier. Palestinians have provided HD footage of their suffering, their nightmare, their horror, for 100 days. Israeli leadership have made little attempt to hide their intent - go to israelquotes.com and filter for the word "genocide". You can't claim ignorance any more.
- vasilipupkin 3y ago
  They left Gaza in 2005 voluntarily and dismantled Gaza settlements Yes, Israel being a democracy and allowing a variety of views including in the government, has various people saying various things there is no doubt they are trying to destroy Hamas, they have soldiers on the ground dying in combat battling Hamas Your list consists of a number of absurd questions. The answer to all of them is they are happing during combat, as damage as a result of combat. Hamas can surrender any time and combat will cease "In all this, they haven't taken out one single senior Hamas leader in Gaza. NOT ONE. " this is false, clearly, they have taken out multiple battalion commanders. Most Hamas most senior leaders are outside of Gaza and they have taken out some of those too "Consider - making sure 2.3 million people have nothing to lose is a profoundly stupid way to try and fight terrorism" There is no way to fight terrorism other than actually fight terrorism.
  - mandmandam 3y ago
    > There is no way to fight terrorism other than actually fight terrorism. Yet somehow every other nation on Earth manages to do it without killing 10,000 children, destroying 75% of residential buildings, blowing up infrastructure, bombing hospitals into rubble, bulldozing cemetaries, bulldozing injured refugees, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. It's a fact that oppressed people fight back. You can, in fact, stop oppressing them and things work out; like apartheid ending in SA, or like the GFA in Northern Ireland. In neither of those cases was "atrocity upon atrocity" the solution to anything. Really, it's surreal to be having to explain this. It's truly self-evident.
    - vasilipupkin 3y ago
      this is false, first of all when there was a fight against ISIS, of course there were civilian casualties. Secondly, Israel has unique security challenges that most nations on Earth do not face. Which nation has a terrorist army on its border ? "oppressed people fight back" is a red herring. Israel left Gaza in 2005, nobody prevented Gaza at that point from becoming paradise, instead of a terrorist haven. And now, with Hamas in charge and vowing to repeat October 7th again and again, Israel has no choice but to go in and eliminate Hamas.

mandmandam 3y ago

> Israel is trying to destroy Hamas to remove this threat. Are they though? Israel's Minister of Communication just spoke on national TV about the need to make the people of Gaza leave "voluntarily". They want the land. That was always the goal, clearly. Because: How does murdering 20,000 women and children remove the threat of Hamas? How does leveling 75% of residential buildings remove the threat of Hamas? How does salting the earth and destroying all the infrastructure necessary for life remove Hamas? How does bombing historic mosques and churches, or universities and civic buildings remove Hamas? How does blockading food, electricity, internet, essential medicine, and even water remove Hamas? 30,000 Palestinians have been murdered during those war crimes. Israel are bombing and destroying refugee camps, UN shelters, UN schools, humanitarian corridors, and hospitals. In all this, they haven't taken out one single senior Hamas leader in Gaza. NOT ONE. Israel hasn't rescued a single hostage. In fact, when they found three hostages - shirtless, waving white flags and calling out in Hebrew - they murdered them. Can you imagine spending over ten billion dollars, and failing to take out one senior leader or rescue a single hostage? Even when allowed and encouraged by your leadership to kill as many civilians and destroy as much as you need to, to the point where ~90% of the population is now homeless? Really - try, if you can, to imagine that level of failure. The world's fourth largest military, killing 10,000 babies in an effort to save a single hostage or kill a single senior Hamas leader. And failing. And people think this will prevent terror? Absurd. Farcical. I find it hard to believe that anyone is taken in by this - and in fact, most of the world isn't. Even a majority of Americans want a ceasefire, and they're Israel's closest ally. > Hamas has embedded itself in civilian population, Hamas is not coming out to fight man to man in an open field That doesn't excuse war crimes, or genocide. Neither did the atrocities of October 7th. The Genocide Convention, which Israel signed over 70 years ago, is very clear on that fact. > how is it supposed to do that other than actually go after Hamas? Consider - making sure 2.3 million people have nothing to lose is a profoundly stupid way to try and fight terrorism. Israel isn't defending itself - when you invade an occupied land, destroy everything, massacre refugees and kill 5 children every hour for a hundred days straight, that's not defense. It's ethnic cleansing. It's genocide. And denying that makes you a genocide denier. Palestinians have provided HD footage of their suffering, their nightmare, their horror, for 100 days. Israeli leadership have made little attempt to hide their intent - go to israelquotes.com and filter for the word "genocide". You can't claim ignorance any more.

vasilipupkin 3y ago
They left Gaza in 2005 voluntarily and dismantled Gaza settlements Yes, Israel being a democracy and allowing a variety of views including in the government, has various people saying various things there is no doubt they are trying to destroy Hamas, they have soldiers on the ground dying in combat battling Hamas Your list consists of a number of absurd questions. The answer to all of them is they are happing during combat, as damage as a result of combat. Hamas can surrender any time and combat will cease "In all this, they haven't taken out one single senior Hamas leader in Gaza. NOT ONE. " this is false, clearly, they have taken out multiple battalion commanders. Most Hamas most senior leaders are outside of Gaza and they have taken out some of those too "Consider - making sure 2.3 million people have nothing to lose is a profoundly stupid way to try and fight terrorism" There is no way to fight terrorism other than actually fight terrorism.
- mandmandam 3y ago
  > There is no way to fight terrorism other than actually fight terrorism. Yet somehow every other nation on Earth manages to do it without killing 10,000 children, destroying 75% of residential buildings, blowing up infrastructure, bombing hospitals into rubble, bulldozing cemetaries, bulldozing injured refugees, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. It's a fact that oppressed people fight back. You can, in fact, stop oppressing them and things work out; like apartheid ending in SA, or like the GFA in Northern Ireland. In neither of those cases was "atrocity upon atrocity" the solution to anything. Really, it's surreal to be having to explain this. It's truly self-evident.
  - vasilipupkin 3y ago
    this is false, first of all when there was a fight against ISIS, of course there were civilian casualties. Secondly, Israel has unique security challenges that most nations on Earth do not face. Which nation has a terrorist army on its border ? "oppressed people fight back" is a red herring. Israel left Gaza in 2005, nobody prevented Gaza at that point from becoming paradise, instead of a terrorist haven. And now, with Hamas in charge and vowing to repeat October 7th again and again, Israel has no choice but to go in and eliminate Hamas.