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An influx of Chinese cars is terrifying the West
- umeshunni 3y agoI was travelling in Latin America (Costa Rica) recently and was surprised by the number of chinese brands (Cherry etc) that were on the streets.
- DaveExeter 3y agoTerrifying the West? No, delighting the West! It is terrifying American auto executives in their Grosse Pointe estates. They are afraid of losing their oligopoly.
- pphysch 3y agoYeah, the Economist is still an elite rag owned by European old money. Still they admit the (buried) fact that inexpensive EVs are good for Western consumers. What a confusing article overall. Clearly the author was trying to make a nuanced argument about free trade, but then the editors had to put their trademark political spin on it, with the result that the headline undermines the central thesis.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoWhat should I be reading instead of The Economist?
- pphysch 3y agoOn issues regarding the global south (like TFA), The Economist is one of the most noisy and unreliable narrators. I'd recommend a diverse media diet that complements mainstream Western media (Reuters, AP) with non-Western English mainstream outlets like AJ, SCMP, CGTN, RT, TRT. State/oligarch controlled media is only harmful if you think it is objective truth and not propaganda. This applies to RT, CGTN but also to Reuters, AP, Wikipedia. We actually live in a very rich+diverse English-language media landscape, which "reputable", low-signal, vibes-based tabloids like The Economist, The Atlantic, etc. do not represent well.
- dash2 3y agoIf you're consuming RT you are choosing to believe that you are too smart to believe propaganda. Maybe so. More likely, you are the sucker in this transaction. Also, Wikipedia may have biases but it is weird to call it oligarch-controlled.
- pphysch 3y agoI read RT and think, "this is how the Russian elite think / want me to think". I read BBC and think, "this is how the British elite think / want me to think". If they both agree on something mundane, like Chinese EV exports, then it's almost certainly fact-based journalism. If they disagree significantly or use emotional appeals, I look for the primary evidence to better understand who is in the right. Everyone consumes propaganda every day, but it takes work to see through it. It is a form of ideological cope to pretend that RT or CGTN has significantly more misinformation/propaganda than NYT or BBC, and therefore we ought to rely on the latter while totally ignoring the former.
- dash2 3y ago> It is a form of ideological cope to pretend that RT or CGTN has significantly more misinformation/propaganda than NYT or BBC Really? There's a lot of reasons to expect it to be true. The NYT and BBC, while imperfect, have guard rails like independent trustees and a commitment to impartiality. RT is a dictator's tool, populated by his flunkies. Most people would think RT's news quality is significantly worse.
- mopsi 3y agoThis is what you are led to believe if you consume RT. One of the cornerstones of RT's propaganda is cynicism paired with moral relativism; the idea that everyone is the same, that all governments and peoples of the world are the same dirty pigs as Russians, which in turn means that Russians do nothing wrong when they invade a foreign country to torture children, rape women, murder innocents. But that's not true. Despite all of their faults, NYT and Fox News are not under direct editorial control of the White House, whereas the RT (and all other media in Russia) is directly run from the Kremlin. Every morning starts with a meeting where the editorial boards receive latest talking points from the Kremlin, and their freedom is only to choose how they phrase them, if even that. RT is a government-run project to warp perceptions; NYT and Fox aren't. And public broadcasters like PBS or DR in Europe aren't even affected by ownership and financial factors, like one could blame the corporate media.
- anon25783 3y agoAn influx of Chinese cars is terrifying The Economist
- KerrAvon 3y agoTerrifying Musk, I imagine. They can shut down or sabotage his ventures in China in a heartbeat if they choose.
- BobaFloutist 3y agoThat is a truly remarkable header image.
- hooverd 3y ago"Sir, a second BYD has hit the American auto industry."
- AxiomaticSpace 3y agohttps://web.archive.org/web/20240111171529/https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/01/11/an-influx-of-chinese-cars-is-terrifying-the-west https://web.archive.org/web/20240111171529/https://www.econo...
- TekMol 3y agoIf a country like Germany is losing more and more of its clout, by losing out on internet, AI and now their car industry - does that make it a good place to live for someone who's business is international? Will prices for rent etc go down?
- logicchains 3y agoIf you're looking at it from a purely financial perspective, Germany is a very costly place to live/run a business because of the high tax rate.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoWould likely do better in Portugal or Spain wrt cost of living and proximity to Europe. Wealth tax to keep in mind for Spain. EDIT: I tilt towards rural/low density areas. Understand the cosmopolitan desire though.
- TekMol 3y agoLisbon is pretty, but I think it might feel a bit small after a while. Theres not that much going on. Not yet sure about Barcelona.
- alecco 3y agoBarcelona (and Catalonia in general) is getting more expensive and crime is rising. There are scary junkies on the streets downtown. A lot of expats are leaving. But it is still fun if you like to party. I guess it's good if you are in your 20s and have good income.
- alecco 3y agoSpain is rising taxes while cost of living is rising, too. Rent controls made the prices skyrocket. But if you have low income or live off savings (i.e. low income tax), small Spanish towns are a great choice. Pretty places, friendly open people, good weather. YMMV
- zyang 3y ago
- exitzer0 3y agoJust not sure that I am ready to trust my driving safety to 100% Chinese automobiles.
- miohtama 3y agoSame was said about Japanese cars in 70s https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/adventure/red-line/the-rise-of-japan-how-the-car-industry-was-won/article27100187/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/adventure/red-li... There is no theoretical reason why Chinese manufacturers cannot attain the same quality level over time (maybe even short time) as everyone else.
- xnx 3y ago> Same was said about Japanese cars in 70s And Korean (e.g. Hyundai, Kia) in the 80s and 90s
- ToucanLoucan 3y ago> There is no theoretical reason why Chinese manufacturers cannot attain the same quality level over time (maybe even short time) as everyone else. Chinese manufacturers can build to any standard of quality, the key being you have to be ready to pay for it which most companies aren't, which is why Chinese manufacturing continues to keep the rep it does: they'll build you a widget worth $0.50 or $50.00, but everybody only wants to spend $0.50 and then they complain when they get $0.50 worth of widget. However, I would like to know why the BYD vehicles are so much cheaper. Are their workers being paid enough to live? Are they cutting corners in manufacturing? Is this a case of simply vertical integration providing dividends, or are they being sponsored by the Chinese government, and if the latter, why? Is it because they don't have dealers, and if so, is that a good thing? People rag on dealerships all the time and there's plenty of good reasons to hate them, but they do have upshots too. My dealership of choice where my salesman of choice works is one of the few places I'm fairly comfortable that I'm not going to get put over a barrel as soon as I sign. That relationship is hard to find these days. I'm all for cheaper cars, absolutely. Prices in the states especially are fucking ridiculous. But I also am cognizant of what "X but cheaper" usually means. It usually means one or more of the following: - It's built by slaves (or near slaves) - It's stolen from the global south - It's of shit-quality - It will show me ads
- pierat 3y agoWell, I've been looking at Chinese EV's and basically drooling at what they're doing. In this country (USA), an EV is a ball-and-chain over how many miles until you go before a recharge for hours. In China, its 3 minutes to SWAP a battery. You know, the solution the manchild in charge of Tesla said wouldn't work. And here it is, working in USD 12k ev's. https://www.scmp.com/video/scmp-originals/3168635/chinese-smart-battery-swap-stations-can-change-ev-batteries https://www.scmp.com/video/scmp-originals/3168635/chinese-sm... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anXQfRuAkZw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anXQfRuAkZw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoBeXHYdO0Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoBeXHYdO0Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw But hey, look at the "bright side" - we now get $7500 off cars that start at USD 70k for EVs. Real 'deal'.
- kcb 3y agoEh. Recharge for hours is just incorrect. And BYD doesn't seem to be going the battery swap route either. So there's more to it than just Elon Musk doesn't like it.
- foobarian 3y agoTesla demoed a battery swap in one of the early keynotes. But I can see the infra being much harder than just charging, as well as restricting the subsequent car design. Maybe the timing is much better now that the EV design has settled a bit. Looks like Nio got to a good number of stations so far [1] [1] https://carnewschina.com/2023/10/20/nio-built-2000-battery-swap-stations-globally-leaving-geely-catl-and-gac-far-behind/ https://carnewschina.com/2023/10/20/nio-built-2000-battery-s...
- engineer_22 3y agoJust to play devil's advocate. For a majority of people, I think most trips aren't long enough to require battery charging/swapping. Charging happens in between your trips when you don't need the car anyway. I travel regionally for work, but even on days that I spend a lot of time in the car my journey may only be 200-300 miles, punctuated by meetings and project work. This system does appear to have advantages for vehicles that are being driven continuously, like taxis, delivery vehicles, or long haul. I think the capital expense for a complicated apparatus like this might be justifiable if you can amortize it across a fleet of vehicles. One drawback may be that if this complicated equipment breaks, you are in a pickle unless you have access to another battery machine. ------ -> You know, the solution the manchild in charge of Tesla said wouldn't work. Disappointing personal opinion unnecessary to your point. ------ Edit: Another drawback may be technology lock in. If battery swap stations only service one brand of car you could look at them as having a reduced utility compared to an industry standard battery pack design. This is not an insurmountable problem, but worth consideration from an economic efficiency perspective.
- htrp 3y agoThis is from the german version of PBS (DW) https://www.dw.com/en/do-germans-fear-chinese-electric-vehicles/video-66930983 https://www.dw.com/en/do-germans-fear-chinese-electric-vehic...
- smy20011 3y agoSome cheapest BYD cars sells in China cost 14k USD. It's cheaper than a lot of EVs in US even considering tariffs.
- AnotherGoodName 3y agoBYD electric cars are available in Australia and establishing a good reputation. Mainly because they are much much cheaper than Tesla's for a similar product. Also there's an influx of marketing for BYD eg. https://www.businessinsider.com/byd-electric-car-powers-life-saving-machine-during-blackout-2024-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/byd-electric-car-powers-life... I noticed they aren't available in the USA but they are taking off where they are available.
- leesalminen 3y agoSame here in Costa Rica. BYD and Geely is everywhere. Tesla's are very rare. Chinese car makers are killing it here.
- csouzaf 3y agoBYD is also taking over in Brazil. Last year some deals was signed[0] and there's some incentives to in-house production [0] https://brazilian.report/liveblog/politics-insider/2023/10/09/electric-vehicle-byd-building-factory/ https://brazilian.report/liveblog/politics-insider/2023/10/0...
- JKCalhoun 3y ago> According to Kelley Blue Book, the average transaction price of a new car in December of last year reached $49,507 The quote above is just the first thing that came up when I Googled the average cost of a new car in the U.S. (article was from May, 2023). I welcome any disruptive force that brings that down back into the troposphere.
- chasd00 3y agoi think there's a lot of variability in the cost a car. For example, a 2024 Toyota Corolla (decent car with decent reputation) starts at $22k. That's less than half the average you mentioned.
- theturtletalks 3y agoDo you really think encumbered car companies are going to let that happen? They will lobby against it heavily. Hell, look at Texas where laws say you have to buy a car through a dealership. It should’ve been repealed, but dealerships won’t let it happen.
- GuB-42 3y agoIn France, there are new rules for subsidies for EVs. Only some cars are eligible, and Chinese cars are notoriously absent. The reason given is that the environmental cost of delivering cars from China is too great. But to me, if it isn't protectionism, I don't know what is. So no Dacia Spring, which is one of the most popular EVs in Europe, because of its low price and no-nonsense design. Nothing from BYD either. As for Tesla, only the Model Y (made in Germany) is eligible.
- hnthrowaway0328 3y agoI hope we can ask them to build local factories to improve employment and also lower the cost of EV in the long run. Right now the other options are too costly comparing to my few years old 30K CAD Tucson Essential (and over 0% interest back then -> bought out after lease).
- living_room_pc 3y agoWe're terrified. The "western" auto industry has been slammed. Condemned by many talking heads, were expecting this trend to go viral... Does this sound like a respectful opinion? Or one that desperately wants my click? I'm not reading this. But in general, I will vote to keep my QoL. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with import tariffs if required.
- paxys 3y agoThe American & European auto industries have led us to $50-70K electric cars and trucks with shoddy manufacturing, falsely advertised range, months-long wait times and dealership markups, expensive maintenance and repairs and shit like seat heating subscriptions on top. If China is succeeding it's because customers desperately want reasonable alternatives. If BYD shows up stateside with a 25-50% discount over Tesla and other premium manufacturers for similar quality and features (like they do in Australia and elsewhere), I will be first in line.
- rho138 3y agoI dropped 50k on a VW id4 and it’s honestly been a delight. All of the ranges have been spot on and the only issue has been the OTA updates being borked.
- franckl 3y agoVery different experience here, to the point I will not buy a VW again. Not a single OTA update since I bought it in October 2021, 3 recalls already and they don't even have the parts available for the last door issue recall. Their mobile app is region locked and I can't install it on my android phone (my app store is set to UK), the bluetooth won't connect half the time, if you start the car too fast you may trigger weird bugs like this one https://www.reddit.com/r/VWiD4Owners/comments/qx1fvs/new_id4_problem_speakers_blasting_back_up_warning/ https://www.reddit.com/r/VWiD4Owners/comments/qx1fvs/new_id4... and the list is very, very long.
- krasin 3y agoRelevant thread ([1]) on vwidtalk.com, "Did you know... | Prepaid VW SW subscriptions that will expire": > According to myVW (formerly VW Car-Net): my current subscriptions (that were prepaid by VW at time of ID4 purchase )- > Remote Access (myVW) is a subscription that expires on 3/17/2026. > Plus Nav (VW native navigation and traffic) is a subscription that expires on 4/23/2024. > Plus Speech (IDTalk) is a subscription that expires on 4/23/2024. That's exactly the point of the grandfather comment - bullshit subscriptions inside western cars are now everywhere. 1. https://www.vwidtalk.com/threads/did-you-know-prepaid-vw-sw-subscriptions-that-will-expire.7073/ https://www.vwidtalk.com/threads/did-you-know-prepaid-vw-sw-...
- zug_zug 3y agoI say more power to them. I was considering buying a "luxury" vehicle and realized that the cost (between insurance, personal property tax, opportunity cost / apr, increased gas, depreciation) was $2,000 a month. Instead I said, "What if I just keep my camry, blow through $2000 a month on other stuff instead." (if you lease this number is closer to $3k a month) It's just wild how leather seats + 50% faster acceleration = 30,000 extra dollars. Anyways the margins are nuts and we're due for some disruption and real competition for real features. Call me when a car washes itself.
- bovermyer 3y agoThe BYD Han looks like any other modern sedan. The only thing that stood out to me as different is the karaoke UI in the ad video. I think my next car is going to be from 30-40 years ago, not something new.
- mgraupner 3y agoOver Christmas I rented an EV here in Germany, wanted to try the Renault Megane E-Tech. Instead I got an Ora Funky Cat, so Chinese car. Electrical driving was quite nice (as most EV), but there were so many other annoying things: - First and most important for an EV: It needed a lot of energy, 25 kWh per 100 km at 120 km/h on the highway at 10 degree Celsius. Combined with a pretty small battery it was annoying how fast you lost range. - It warns you (via voice) as soon as you hit 120 km/h, every time you go below and reach it again. - If you activate the Automatic Distance Control it will warn you (again with voice), every time you activate it. - It was cold in the car, even with temperature set to 26 degree Celsius. But the heating was working when the car was not moving but in ready mode. - Slow charging speeds, 70kW max. - If you unpack your car and leave the door open, it will warn you with voice output, that the key is not in the car. All the time, without any pause, a hundred times. Highly annoying. - A lot more annoying things the car tells you to do, all with its voice. So all in all a pretty horrible experience, if other Chinese cars are similar, they will not make a dent here in Germany, even with their lower price point.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y agoThe whole influx of Chinese cars is greatly exaggerated. Car is not a phone, so you can't just make it and have user to throw it away when it breaks. User will want support (service, diagnostics, parts) so you need service network and train people in that service network. You need to have aftermarket parts distribution and storge. This all will cost money, so price for Chinese cars will go up and level up with European cars and Asian brands already established in Europe. Or you can ignore all of that and have people driving cars 10k EUR cheaper than competitors, but when they will experience minor breakage or fender bender, their cheaper (but still expensive) car will become a 2-3 tones brick on the side of a road. Not good for PR and future of your brand.