4 ms·

I think a lot of people would argue that Emacs is also slow and bloated, but makes you, the user, program most of the functionality you get from VSCode or JB ou

I think a lot of people would argue that Emacs is also slow and bloated, but makes you, the user, program most of the functionality you get from VSCode or JB out of the box. Want fuzzing finding? That's a package. Want git integration? That's a package. Want LSP? Also a package. Want to have sane defaults? Go look at 20 different init.els online and cargo cult a bunch of elisp. And after you've made your own Emacs stew spend, the next 14 years stomping out bugs and ignoring the things it still can't do, like run a multi-threaded tramp so a bad connection doesn't freeze your entire editor. I think the people who switch from editor to editor that requires 0 config actually saved time and money by just doing their job rather than configuring their editor, and this is coming from a Vim user. Emacs is a black whole where "free" time gets sucked in never to be seen again. The big difference is as a Vim user I only had to configure my editor, you had to configure your entire operating system including Org mode. I also am not sure about the whole Vim thing. On reddit, Vim has 3x the number of community users as Emacs and Neovim. I think Vim is still by far the most popular text based editor, but nowadays I think VSCode is unfortunately here to stay because Microsoft knows the value of having a captive developer audience.

taeric 3y ago
Emacs does do a lot more "out of the box" now than many people realize. You will still have to turn them on, I think; but you don't have to install as many external packages as you are implying there. And the problem with "sane defaults" is that to those of us that have been on Emacs for a long time, the defaults are sane. If you were to switch them on us, that would be frustrating. You /could/ make it so that startup on a vanilla setup has a set of checkboxes for common input schemes that people select between. I'm not sure why that hasn't been done, or what other issues that would have. As for saving time/money by "doing their job" rather than configuring an editor. This is always a tough one. I don't think people should have to spend time getting to know their editors. But, I also don't worry that people don't spend time learning to care for their cars or their plumbing. That is, it makes sense that many people want to outsource that effort to others. It also makes sense that many people like getting into that sort of stuff. And I don't know why it has to be a battle between them?
masfoobar 3y ago
> I think a lot of people would argue that Emacs is also slow and bloated, but makes you, the user, program most of the functionality you get from VSCode or JB out of the box I only use what I need. Use-Package, Org, Org-Roam, Magit, Yasnippets, and Modes for my chosen programming languages.. are a must. all other things, like Themes, come second. Anything else are just nice additions. Point is, I do not spend much time playing about with my config. > I think the people who switch from editor to editor that requires 0 config actually saved time and money Moving from IDE/Editor to another IDE/Editor will still have some form of learning curve. I stick with Emacs, based on my comments above. > I also am not sure about the whole Vim thing. Sure - my comment is not an Emacs vs Vi thing. I know vi/vim is still popular and, yes, I still use it from time to time when SSH'ing onto a server for a quick config change. I am expecting it to be more popular than emacs. Point is, despite neovim coming around.. I am sure vi (or vim) will still be lurking around in 10 years.. like emacs.
dingnuts 3y ago
>Want fuzzing finding? That's a package No, it's built in. Want non-default fuzzy finding? That's a package. >Want git integration? That's a package No, that's built in. Want non-default git integration that's fancier? That's a package >Want LSP? Also a package No, that's built in. >Want to have sane defaults? Go look at 20 different init.els online and cargo cult a bunch of elisp. No, read the tutorial or install a starter kit if you must, but really the defaults are fine -- just old. You can do almost everything you want in Emacs with just Alt-x (M-x) and running commands. It's what those new editors call a "command palette" except Emacs has had one for decades. > The big difference is as a Vim user I only had to configure my editor, you had to configure your entire operating system including Org mode. lol what? This must be a troll post. Org Mode is not required in any way to use Emacs, and it actually has pretty decent defaults because it's actively developed.
- softirq 3y ago
  Semantics. Some of the packages are included, all of them have to be turned on and configured, and hopefully the user already knows about use package and understands the syntax for customizations and keybindings. Of course, if they try to Google how to use these packages they'll realize that Eglot doesn't work with DAP, so if you want to debug anything you'll need to go download the third party lsp-mode and dap-mode, configure them, then realize everyone uses swiper, consul, etc. which you'll need to download and configure as well. > but really the defaults are fine -- just old. I assume this is just Stockholm syndrome. Every Emacs config starts by turning on the same minor modes hooked to prog major modes for simple stuff like bracket matching and line numbers. Every config sets the same early-init.el params to stop emacs from being slow. If the defaults were sane, everyone wouldn't be disabling and enabling the same stuff in their config. The defaults are not sane precisely because people complain that changing any of the defaults for a 30 year old editor in 2024 is tantamount to open source treason.
  - drbaba 3y ago
    > Some of the packages are included, all of them have to be turned on and configured I see where you're coming from, but I think this is a bit exaggerated as well. For some concrete examples: - Git: Emacs does have a built-in `vc-mode`, which can be used without any prior configuration by pressing `C-x v`. Or you can go to `Tools > Version Control` in the menu bar (if you haven't disabled it). Many people prefer to install Magit, but the built-in package is actually quite decent (the UX is a bit similar). - You brought up LSP. Emacs now has a built-in `eglot` mode which connects to LSP servers, and is pre-configured to work with many of the open-source ones. You can turn it on by pressing `M-x eglot`, or go to `Tools > Language Server Support (Eglot)` in the menu bar. Many people prefer to install LSP-mode, but I think many people have also migrated to Eglot after it landed officially in Emacs. > Every Emacs config starts by turning on the same minor modes hooked to prog major modes for simple stuff like bracket matching and line numbers. Every config sets the same early-init.el params to stop emacs from being slow. I agree with you that the defaults should be modernized. For example, I think most people would appreciate if the defaults were updated to e.g. use one of the `modus` themes, automatically switch to a dark theme if the OS has it enabled, and enable a fuzzy-finder like fido-vertical-mode without configuration. All of these capabilities are already bundled with Emacs, just not turned on by default. I'd also advocate for disabling the blinking cursor and the bell - who wants that? Just as a counter-example though, I don't have any of the specific settings you mentioned enabled: - I dislike line numbers (they look weird if you work with soft-wrapped prose and they take up space) - I don't like bracket matching (they don't work well with modal editing). - I don't use the early-init garbage collector optimizations (Emacs anyway starts in a second as I use few packages, and leave it open all day so it doesn't matter).
masfoobar 3y ago
To further this... Adding packages in emacs are not that hard. The only area (in my opinion) where you have a point are newcommers to emacs. The learning curve is as steep as you want it to be. You do need to invest time to understand it and get really good at it. The key combinations, packages, etc. This is likely where many will just go to Visual Studio Code or something else. Emacs... when you take the time to invest, the rewards are HUGE and goes beyond (the likes of) Visual Studio Code. I consider myself an experienced emacs user. Are their better, more talented, absolute beast-like emacs users out there? Yes. More gifted than me? Absolutely. I know enough elisp to get things done quickly. If I needed to put together a new emacs install from scratch, I could get all the main bits I need in 20 mins or less. Better news is my emacs config. Makes use of use-package and factors in Windows and Linux. Nice and clean elisp code!! I can take it wherever and use it for new installs. My comments is not forcing people to use emacs. Can I be bias at times? Absolutely! Do I like a little light-hearted jokes about editors? Absolutely! I use to have a little poke at vim devs in the past. They did it back. We actually learned from each others methods of 'doing something' on our editors. I miss that. I am not religious to emacs but, as software goes, it is close to me. However, I am also open to something replacing it. None of the IDEs or editors available are nowhere near being a replacement... for me. Does not mean something in the future cannot break that mold.

taeric 3y ago

Emacs does do a lot more "out of the box" now than many people realize. You will still have to turn them on, I think; but you don't have to install as many external packages as you are implying there. And the problem with "sane defaults" is that to those of us that have been on Emacs for a long time, the defaults are sane. If you were to switch them on us, that would be frustrating. You /could/ make it so that startup on a vanilla setup has a set of checkboxes for common input schemes that people select between. I'm not sure why that hasn't been done, or what other issues that would have. As for saving time/money by "doing their job" rather than configuring an editor. This is always a tough one. I don't think people should have to spend time getting to know their editors. But, I also don't worry that people don't spend time learning to care for their cars or their plumbing. That is, it makes sense that many people want to outsource that effort to others. It also makes sense that many people like getting into that sort of stuff. And I don't know why it has to be a battle between them?

masfoobar 3y ago

> I think a lot of people would argue that Emacs is also slow and bloated, but makes you, the user, program most of the functionality you get from VSCode or JB out of the box I only use what I need. Use-Package, Org, Org-Roam, Magit, Yasnippets, and Modes for my chosen programming languages.. are a must. all other things, like Themes, come second. Anything else are just nice additions. Point is, I do not spend much time playing about with my config. > I think the people who switch from editor to editor that requires 0 config actually saved time and money Moving from IDE/Editor to another IDE/Editor will still have some form of learning curve. I stick with Emacs, based on my comments above. > I also am not sure about the whole Vim thing. Sure - my comment is not an Emacs vs Vi thing. I know vi/vim is still popular and, yes, I still use it from time to time when SSH'ing onto a server for a quick config change. I am expecting it to be more popular than emacs. Point is, despite neovim coming around.. I am sure vi (or vim) will still be lurking around in 10 years.. like emacs.

dingnuts 3y ago

>Want fuzzing finding? That's a package No, it's built in. Want non-default fuzzy finding? That's a package. >Want git integration? That's a package No, that's built in. Want non-default git integration that's fancier? That's a package >Want LSP? Also a package No, that's built in. >Want to have sane defaults? Go look at 20 different init.els online and cargo cult a bunch of elisp. No, read the tutorial or install a starter kit if you must, but really the defaults are fine -- just old. You can do almost everything you want in Emacs with just Alt-x (M-x) and running commands. It's what those new editors call a "command palette" except Emacs has had one for decades. > The big difference is as a Vim user I only had to configure my editor, you had to configure your entire operating system including Org mode. lol what? This must be a troll post. Org Mode is not required in any way to use Emacs, and it actually has pretty decent defaults because it's actively developed.

softirq 3y ago
Semantics. Some of the packages are included, all of them have to be turned on and configured, and hopefully the user already knows about use package and understands the syntax for customizations and keybindings. Of course, if they try to Google how to use these packages they'll realize that Eglot doesn't work with DAP, so if you want to debug anything you'll need to go download the third party lsp-mode and dap-mode, configure them, then realize everyone uses swiper, consul, etc. which you'll need to download and configure as well. > but really the defaults are fine -- just old. I assume this is just Stockholm syndrome. Every Emacs config starts by turning on the same minor modes hooked to prog major modes for simple stuff like bracket matching and line numbers. Every config sets the same early-init.el params to stop emacs from being slow. If the defaults were sane, everyone wouldn't be disabling and enabling the same stuff in their config. The defaults are not sane precisely because people complain that changing any of the defaults for a 30 year old editor in 2024 is tantamount to open source treason.
- drbaba 3y ago
  > Some of the packages are included, all of them have to be turned on and configured I see where you're coming from, but I think this is a bit exaggerated as well. For some concrete examples: - Git: Emacs does have a built-in `vc-mode`, which can be used without any prior configuration by pressing `C-x v`. Or you can go to `Tools > Version Control` in the menu bar (if you haven't disabled it). Many people prefer to install Magit, but the built-in package is actually quite decent (the UX is a bit similar). - You brought up LSP. Emacs now has a built-in `eglot` mode which connects to LSP servers, and is pre-configured to work with many of the open-source ones. You can turn it on by pressing `M-x eglot`, or go to `Tools > Language Server Support (Eglot)` in the menu bar. Many people prefer to install LSP-mode, but I think many people have also migrated to Eglot after it landed officially in Emacs. > Every Emacs config starts by turning on the same minor modes hooked to prog major modes for simple stuff like bracket matching and line numbers. Every config sets the same early-init.el params to stop emacs from being slow. I agree with you that the defaults should be modernized. For example, I think most people would appreciate if the defaults were updated to e.g. use one of the `modus` themes, automatically switch to a dark theme if the OS has it enabled, and enable a fuzzy-finder like fido-vertical-mode without configuration. All of these capabilities are already bundled with Emacs, just not turned on by default. I'd also advocate for disabling the blinking cursor and the bell - who wants that? Just as a counter-example though, I don't have any of the specific settings you mentioned enabled: - I dislike line numbers (they look weird if you work with soft-wrapped prose and they take up space) - I don't like bracket matching (they don't work well with modal editing). - I don't use the early-init garbage collector optimizations (Emacs anyway starts in a second as I use few packages, and leave it open all day so it doesn't matter).

masfoobar 3y ago

To further this... Adding packages in emacs are not that hard. The only area (in my opinion) where you have a point are newcommers to emacs. The learning curve is as steep as you want it to be. You do need to invest time to understand it and get really good at it. The key combinations, packages, etc. This is likely where many will just go to Visual Studio Code or something else. Emacs... when you take the time to invest, the rewards are HUGE and goes beyond (the likes of) Visual Studio Code. I consider myself an experienced emacs user. Are their better, more talented, absolute beast-like emacs users out there? Yes. More gifted than me? Absolutely. I know enough elisp to get things done quickly. If I needed to put together a new emacs install from scratch, I could get all the main bits I need in 20 mins or less. Better news is my emacs config. Makes use of use-package and factors in Windows and Linux. Nice and clean elisp code!! I can take it wherever and use it for new installs. My comments is not forcing people to use emacs. Can I be bias at times? Absolutely! Do I like a little light-hearted jokes about editors? Absolutely! I use to have a little poke at vim devs in the past. They did it back. We actually learned from each others methods of 'doing something' on our editors. I miss that. I am not religious to emacs but, as software goes, it is close to me. However, I am also open to something replacing it. None of the IDEs or editors available are nowhere near being a replacement... for me. Does not mean something in the future cannot break that mold.