3 ms·

How did Reagan and Thatcher 'empower' other countries to rise up and compete with the US & Europe? If they passed the right combination of laws, we would've pre

How did Reagan and Thatcher 'empower' other countries to rise up and compete with the US & Europe? If they passed the right combination of laws, we would've prevented billions of smart, hard-working people from daring to compete with the West? Do you think it's moral to impoverish billions of people to keep the West economically pre-eminent? (Should the US have kept Europe impoverished post-WW2 to prevent the competition?) I strongly disagree with the idea that the government is a magic God-like wizard, who can bend objective reality and achieve any economic or social outcome by twisting the right knobs here or there. Other countries rose economically to compete with the West and that's not something that the government can magically outlaw, any more than it can pass a law against the tide coming in tomorrow

eru 3y ago
> I strongly disagree with the idea that the government is a magic God-like wizard, who can bend objective reality and achieve any economic or social outcome by twisting the right knobs here or there. Agreed. See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38838608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38838608 on a similar topic recently. You might like my sibling comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38953586 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38953586
epups 3y ago
I never said they should have kept other countries poorer - if anything, they achieved the opposite with their policies. However, they were elected democratically by their societies and, in my opinion, they implemented policies that were not meant for the common good, but for the profit of a minority. The rise of China may have been inevitable - was massive financial deregulation inevitable as well? Neoliberalism led to the disenfranchisement and deterioration of the quality of life of American and British low- and middle-income workers to a higher degree than in other comparable nations (Canada, France, Germany, etc.) which did not embrace these policies to the same degree. See [1]. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68945 https://www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68...
- hash872 3y ago
  Respectfully, this is par for the course in discussing public policy with populists. It's just a Gish Gallop of random disconnected arguments. OK so now you concede that Reagan and Thatcher weren't responsible for the rise of China, so you've completely switched gears to financial regulation- which has nothing to do with China. Complete non-sequitur switch of topics, but it makes sense to your worldview because you lump it all under the rubric of 'neoliberalism'. (Also, how is quality of life lower for Americans than Canada/France/Germany when the median worker is so much richer here? And I said median- not mean)
  - epups 3y ago
    What I said is that wage growth in the West has been kept lower than it could have been because of their policies, including massive financial deregulation. Here is a primer in case others are interested [1]. > (Also, how is quality of life lower for Americans than Canada/France/Germany when the median worker is so much richer here? And I said median- not mean) There are multiple indicators for that. A very neutral and uncontroversial one is that life expectancy is ~5 years higher in those other countries compared to the US, a phenomenon that has only gotten worse since Reagan [2]. But we could also talk about work hours, parental leave, vacation and many other things that are much more favorable for the median worker in all of these other countries. [1] https://www.epi.org/publication/causes-of-wage-stagnation/ https://www.epi.org/publication/causes-of-wage-stagnation/ [2] https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries/#Life%20expectancy%20and%20per%20capita%20healthcare%20spending%20(PPP%20adjusted),%202021 https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-lif...
    - hash872 3y ago
      US life expectancy is (slightly) lower due to guns, opioids, and traffic deaths- none of these have any connection to 'massive financial deregulation' (or China). US wages have not stagnated, and it's worth noting that the US is about middle of the pack in income inequality overall- #61 out 168 countries globally. (1) How does parental leave or vacation time connect to financial regulations? This is what I mean by, populism is a Gish Gallop of disconnected emotional non-sequiturs. There's no central coherent point, just grievances and random observations 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...

eru 3y ago

> I strongly disagree with the idea that the government is a magic God-like wizard, who can bend objective reality and achieve any economic or social outcome by twisting the right knobs here or there. Agreed. See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38838608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38838608 on a similar topic recently. You might like my sibling comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38953586 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38953586

epups 3y ago

I never said they should have kept other countries poorer - if anything, they achieved the opposite with their policies. However, they were elected democratically by their societies and, in my opinion, they implemented policies that were not meant for the common good, but for the profit of a minority. The rise of China may have been inevitable - was massive financial deregulation inevitable as well? Neoliberalism led to the disenfranchisement and deterioration of the quality of life of American and British low- and middle-income workers to a higher degree than in other comparable nations (Canada, France, Germany, etc.) which did not embrace these policies to the same degree. See [1]. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68945 https://www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68...

hash872 3y ago
Respectfully, this is par for the course in discussing public policy with populists. It's just a Gish Gallop of random disconnected arguments. OK so now you concede that Reagan and Thatcher weren't responsible for the rise of China, so you've completely switched gears to financial regulation- which has nothing to do with China. Complete non-sequitur switch of topics, but it makes sense to your worldview because you lump it all under the rubric of 'neoliberalism'. (Also, how is quality of life lower for Americans than Canada/France/Germany when the median worker is so much richer here? And I said median- not mean)
- epups 3y ago
  What I said is that wage growth in the West has been kept lower than it could have been because of their policies, including massive financial deregulation. Here is a primer in case others are interested [1]. > (Also, how is quality of life lower for Americans than Canada/France/Germany when the median worker is so much richer here? And I said median- not mean) There are multiple indicators for that. A very neutral and uncontroversial one is that life expectancy is ~5 years higher in those other countries compared to the US, a phenomenon that has only gotten worse since Reagan [2]. But we could also talk about work hours, parental leave, vacation and many other things that are much more favorable for the median worker in all of these other countries. [1] https://www.epi.org/publication/causes-of-wage-stagnation/ https://www.epi.org/publication/causes-of-wage-stagnation/ [2] https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries/#Life%20expectancy%20and%20per%20capita%20healthcare%20spending%20(PPP%20adjusted),%202021 https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-lif...
  - hash872 3y ago
    US life expectancy is (slightly) lower due to guns, opioids, and traffic deaths- none of these have any connection to 'massive financial deregulation' (or China). US wages have not stagnated, and it's worth noting that the US is about middle of the pack in income inequality overall- #61 out 168 countries globally. (1) How does parental leave or vacation time connect to financial regulations? This is what I mean by, populism is a Gish Gallop of disconnected emotional non-sequiturs. There's no central coherent point, just grievances and random observations 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...