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This seems to be an extension of the biggest problem with EVs: The edge cases. Even if the edge case is only 1% of your travel, do you want to buy a car that c

This seems to be an extension of the biggest problem with EVs: The edge cases. Even if the edge case is only 1% of your travel, do you want to buy a car that can't do it? It can be anything. You're living in Minnesota and your dad in Chicago had a heart attack. An ICE can get you there in about ~7 hours. An EV... you're going to need 1 supercharging station at a minimum, probably 2. Or, you just decide you want a road trip from Minnesota to Texas. You pull over to the nearest supercharger in Arkansas to discover you're forced to hang out in a town where you really don't feel safe for an hour or two. That's great. EVs make far more sense in Europe than America, with the current range they can offer, combined with general proximity of relatives. I'm not saying they don't have a future in America, I just won't be surprised if we are the slowest adopters.

_ea1k 3y ago
An hour or two? Noone is hanging out around superchargers for that long if they don't already want to be there.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  Sure, if you buy a new Tesla, it's pretty good now. But not everyone can afford a new EV. If you buy almost any EV on the used market, such as a used Tesla...
  - brianwawok 3y ago
    A used 3 or Y will charge just fine. 15-20 minutes should cover most cases.
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    That still wouldn't be true for a used Tesla. Most used sales are Model 3 or Y. Both charge really well. Even older used Model S or X are more like 30 minutes than 2 hours, especially if the location is bad and you'd rather get to the next one.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  You might be if you need to return the car at 100%, the last few percent of battery takes forever to charge due to chemistry. I don't know what Hertz requires, but returning it at 100% is stupid. It's hard on the battery and takes forever. Charging to 80% takes a lot less time and is easier on the battery, so hopefully that's all that Hertz requires. Edit: a different commenter says you need to return at 75%. That's reasonable.
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    Yeah, and tbh, I'm hearing that their return fees are actually pretty reasonable. If you can return at less than 75% for only $25, just do that. Supercharging isn't particularly cheap anyway, so you can't save that much money with a long wait.
jstummbillig 3y ago
Sounds like a transformation issue. In the beginning (I assume) before widespread filling station networks getting gas was an issue. Now it's not. That's not a quality of gas vs EV, it's a quality of ubiquity.
- nytesky 3y ago
  There is also the fact that charging takes longer, even with supercharging, right?
  - jstummbillig 3y ago
    Improvement is tightly coupled with ubiquity. As things get better, they improve in a lot of ways.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  I agree; but nobody buying cars cares about what kind of issue it is. It's an issue ICE doesn't have and they don't want that issue.
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    True, and this is why sales for EVs basically automatically increase as infrastructure is built out in a particular area. Once consumers understand the capability and what is their, their buying patterns are fairly rational. In my experience, most people outside of the EV bubble underestimate how much infrastructure is already there. At least for Tesla. For CCS cars in the US, it isn't so great.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  At one point in time the pharmacy was the standard place to buy gasoline.
- andrewla 3y ago
  It's both -- the ubiquity would make things a lot easier, but you can fill up a car with gas in five minutes.
Ekaros 3y ago
I consider my probable edge case, driving to the capital for example airport there, 160km+something nearly all of it motorway so slightly worse range if I drive at legal limit. So I would like to get there in one go as being 2 hours early anyway is big time sink. And then when I'm coming back I just want to get to home not stop in middle to charge... Or I might want to do same with some client or relative there. Train station is very near, but not that near... And it still means connection to get to actual airport... And new EVs are pretty expensive, compared already paid car...
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  > And new EVs are pretty expensive, compared already paid car... My family has neighbors that just buy and repair older cars and sell them pretty low cost. The quality of their work has been considered very good by third-party mechanics. My parents recently bought a 2005 Pontiac with a V6 from them for about ~$4K with 135K miles. One accident (deer sideswipe), only body. Do you know what a 2013 Tesla Model S with 135K miles goes for around here? About $17K. If we're lucky, we could maybe negotiate it to $15K-$14K; but that's still almost four times the cost. And sure, the Tesla is eight years newer, but I make a similar comparison because it was very much a 1st-gen product... My money is on the Pontiac lasting longer.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  That sounds like an easy problem to solve, tbh. 100 miles and l1 at the airport. It'd be nice if they all installed at least a few rows of those.
JohnFen 3y ago
> Even if the edge case is only 1% of your travel, do you want to buy a car that can't do it? Why not? If my car covers 99% of my needs, that seems fine. I can rent a vehicle for the other 1%.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>EVs make far more sense in Europe than America As an European, no they don't. Europeans often use their cars for long travels cross borders for work, vacation or visiting relatives where public trasnportation doesn't serve them, and the lack or underdevelopment of charging infrastructre makes them viable only for people with their own house, garage and charger at home or for businesses which do short trips around town like deliveries or realtors. Everyone else has ICEs.

_ea1k 3y ago

An hour or two? Noone is hanging out around superchargers for that long if they don't already want to be there.

gjsman-1000 3y ago
Sure, if you buy a new Tesla, it's pretty good now. But not everyone can afford a new EV. If you buy almost any EV on the used market, such as a used Tesla...
- brianwawok 3y ago
  A used 3 or Y will charge just fine. 15-20 minutes should cover most cases.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  That still wouldn't be true for a used Tesla. Most used sales are Model 3 or Y. Both charge really well. Even older used Model S or X are more like 30 minutes than 2 hours, especially if the location is bad and you'd rather get to the next one.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
You might be if you need to return the car at 100%, the last few percent of battery takes forever to charge due to chemistry. I don't know what Hertz requires, but returning it at 100% is stupid. It's hard on the battery and takes forever. Charging to 80% takes a lot less time and is easier on the battery, so hopefully that's all that Hertz requires. Edit: a different commenter says you need to return at 75%. That's reasonable.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  Yeah, and tbh, I'm hearing that their return fees are actually pretty reasonable. If you can return at less than 75% for only $25, just do that. Supercharging isn't particularly cheap anyway, so you can't save that much money with a long wait.

jstummbillig 3y ago

Sounds like a transformation issue. In the beginning (I assume) before widespread filling station networks getting gas was an issue. Now it's not. That's not a quality of gas vs EV, it's a quality of ubiquity.

nytesky 3y ago
There is also the fact that charging takes longer, even with supercharging, right?
- jstummbillig 3y ago
  Improvement is tightly coupled with ubiquity. As things get better, they improve in a lot of ways.
gjsman-1000 3y ago
I agree; but nobody buying cars cares about what kind of issue it is. It's an issue ICE doesn't have and they don't want that issue.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  True, and this is why sales for EVs basically automatically increase as infrastructure is built out in a particular area. Once consumers understand the capability and what is their, their buying patterns are fairly rational. In my experience, most people outside of the EV bubble underestimate how much infrastructure is already there. At least for Tesla. For CCS cars in the US, it isn't so great.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
At one point in time the pharmacy was the standard place to buy gasoline.
andrewla 3y ago
It's both -- the ubiquity would make things a lot easier, but you can fill up a car with gas in five minutes.

Ekaros 3y ago

I consider my probable edge case, driving to the capital for example airport there, 160km+something nearly all of it motorway so slightly worse range if I drive at legal limit. So I would like to get there in one go as being 2 hours early anyway is big time sink. And then when I'm coming back I just want to get to home not stop in middle to charge... Or I might want to do same with some client or relative there. Train station is very near, but not that near... And it still means connection to get to actual airport... And new EVs are pretty expensive, compared already paid car...

gjsman-1000 3y ago
> And new EVs are pretty expensive, compared already paid car... My family has neighbors that just buy and repair older cars and sell them pretty low cost. The quality of their work has been considered very good by third-party mechanics. My parents recently bought a 2005 Pontiac with a V6 from them for about ~$4K with 135K miles. One accident (deer sideswipe), only body. Do you know what a 2013 Tesla Model S with 135K miles goes for around here? About $17K. If we're lucky, we could maybe negotiate it to $15K-$14K; but that's still almost four times the cost. And sure, the Tesla is eight years newer, but I make a similar comparison because it was very much a 1st-gen product... My money is on the Pontiac lasting longer.
_ea1k 3y ago
That sounds like an easy problem to solve, tbh. 100 miles and l1 at the airport. It'd be nice if they all installed at least a few rows of those.

JohnFen 3y ago

> Even if the edge case is only 1% of your travel, do you want to buy a car that can't do it? Why not? If my car covers 99% of my needs, that seems fine. I can rent a vehicle for the other 1%.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>EVs make far more sense in Europe than America As an European, no they don't. Europeans often use their cars for long travels cross borders for work, vacation or visiting relatives where public trasnportation doesn't serve them, and the lack or underdevelopment of charging infrastructre makes them viable only for people with their own house, garage and charger at home or for businesses which do short trips around town like deliveries or realtors. Everyone else has ICEs.