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When I initially read the htmx documentation I was confused because it kept talking about a hypermedia client. The context clues suggested they were referring t

by dvogel 3y ago

When I initially read the htmx documentation I was confused because it kept talking about a hypermedia client. The context clues suggested they were referring to htmx but my brain kept saying "isn't the browser the hypermedia client?" Eventually it sank in that htmx is an extension of the hypermedia client. When I first tried to use htmx I experienced a lot of discomfort regarding areas where htmx feels non-standard, such as redirects in the hx- readers on a 200 response. Once I understood that htmx is explicitly trying to move the boundary of the hypermedia client a lot of that discomfort melted away.

lurking15 3y ago
Yes htmx is an augmentation of the browser, specifically through enhancing HTML by way of JS. The idea is that JS frameworks became popular due to the lack of additional hypermedia controls which are the basis for how agents (users) interact with websites through hypermedia clients (browsers).
troupo 3y ago
> Once I understood that htmx is explicitly trying to move the boundary of the hypermedia client a lot of that discomfort melted away. What do you mean by "moving the boundary of hypermedia client"? HTMX tries to claim that hypermedia to only applies to HTMX because something something browsers and html. Simply put, anything that talks HTTP and understands responses from a server is a hypermedia client to an extent. You can create a client that only accepts base32-encoded cat gifs, and that will be a hypermedia client (in its infancy).
- wild_egg 3y ago
  > Simply put, anything that talks HTTP and understands responses from a server is a hypermedia client to an extent. No, anything that understands hypermedia responses is a hypermedia client. Cat GIFs are not hypermedia so a cat GIF viewer is not a hypermedia client Maybe I'm overly grumpy this morning but words do actually have meanings that we can look up and refer to
  - troupo 3y ago
    Yeah, I went overboard with the example. The issue is that HTMX tries to take over the concept of hypermedia as if it means only HTMX and whatever HTMX is doing :)
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    > words do actually have meanings that we can look up and refer to It's odd to insist on strict word choice when transferring GIF images using the hypertext transfer protocol.
    - masklinn 3y ago
      It's not though? Gifs are media, but they are not hypermedia because they don't support hypertext (can't link to to other media). As such, they're ancillary sub-resources to hypermedia but not themselves hypermedia.
      - flir 3y ago
        If you're going to get that picky (and please be aware I'm only doing this for the sake of the argument) media can never be hypermedia in the absence of the client. HTML opened in notepad is just text. Cat GIFs, rendered in the correct client, would absolutely be hypermedia (you could inline link data as QR codes, if you felt like being perverse). Hypermedia starts with the client, not with the file format.
        ibotty 3y ago
        You are the one being overly picky. Of course given this gif-hypermedia-client your gif is hypermedia. But the client you mentioned above is not. How you transfer the data is irrelevant BTW. I don't get why you include that in your argument.
        recursivedoubts 3y ago
        I agree that a hypermedia can't act properly within the uniform interface constraint, without a hypermedia client, that is, you can't have a hypermedia system without a proper hypermedia client: https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-clients/ https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-clients/ https://hypermedia.systems/hypermedia-components/ https://hypermedia.systems/hypermedia-components/ On the other hand, there is a real difference between plain text and HTML (or HXML, don't shoot!) which is a subset of text with additional concepts layered on top of it. This is akin to how JSON (or XML) is not hypermedia, but can be used to create hypermedia such as Siren or HXML. So I still think it makes sense to discuss if a media is or is not hypermedia without reference to the client, whereas it doesn't make sense to claim it is being used as hypermedia unless it is being consumed by a properly written hypermedia client. To make my thinking concrete, I believe Siren would continue to be hypermedia, even if it wasn't be consumed properly by a client, but then also you could not describe that pairing as a hypermedia system. (This is one reason I focus on the systemic nature of hypermedia, rather than solely on hypermedia formats) Semantic nitpicking perhaps, but then hypermedia discussions appear to tend to invite this sort of thing.
- AmpsterMan 3y ago
  Htmx posits that current browsers aren't "truly" hypermedia since only anchor tags and forms can initiate GET/POST requests. It is more of a tech demo showing what client with ANY tag being able to do requests would look like. That's why whether it is library/framework is besides the point. The author posits that these features should be in the spec, and tries as closely as possible to show what something might look like if we had it in the spec
  - troupo 3y ago
    > The author posits that these features should be in the spec Does he? The author pretends that his library is what hypertext and hypermedia are as envisioned by Time Berners-Lee and Roy Fielding, and that his approach is the only true representation of both. And that's about it. Nothing about "this should be in the spec"
    - dventimi 3y ago
      > The author pretends that his library is what hypertext and hypermedia are as envisioned by Time Berners-Lee and Roy Fielding, and that his approach is the only true representation of both. Does he? Evidence or it didn't happen.
      - troupo 3y ago
        They literally have an entire book written to contort those definitions to mean HTMX
        dventimi 3y ago
        Then it should be easy for you to find at least one passage that demonstrates that.
    - joedevon 3y ago
      You are missing the spirit of the whole thing. HTMX is a polyfill for the future state of browsers.
- recursivedoubts 3y ago
  you keep saying this despite the fact that I explicitly include https://hyperview.org https://hyperview.org as an example of another hypermedia in https://hypermedia.systems https://hypermedia.systems. I am very open to other types of hypermedia and often refer people to “RESTful Web Cliebts” by mark amundsen (https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/restful-web-clients/9781491921890/ https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/restful-web-clients/978...) to learn how build them.
  - troupo 3y ago
    > I am very open to other types of hypermedia Of course you're not. And I already pointed it out to you elsewhere. Your entire writing and marketing revolves around one idea, and one idea only: HTML is "natural hypermedia", and everything else is not.
    - cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
      At this point you are very loudly and publicly grinding your axe to the point that you’re telling someone to their face that they don’t understand their own viewpoint. Putting aside briefly the insanity and futility of that, it makes for a bad experience for literally everyone else.
    - recursivedoubts 3y ago
      OK, this is just completely unreasonable of you. HTML is a natural hypermedia in that it has native hypermedia controls. JSON & XML are not natural hypermedia because they do not, however hypermedia controls can be added on top of them, as in the case of HXML/hyperview, which, again I include in my book on hypermedia systems. There are many other hypermedias, such as Siren, which uses JSON as a base, and I have never claimed otherwise. Mark Amundsen, perhaps the worlds expert on hypermedia, wrote the forward to my book, Hypermedia Systems, and found nothing objectionable and much worthwhile in it. I hate to be rude but you didn't understand, or refused to acknowledge, the basic meaning and usage of the term 'hypermedia control' until I cited a W3C document using it. While I certainly understand people can dislike the conceptual basis of htmx, its admittedly idiosyncratic implementation or the way we talk about it, at this point I have tried to engage you multiple times in good faith here and have been rewarded with baseless accusations of things I haven't said and don't believe. At this point, to be an honest person, you need to apologize for misrepresenting what I am saying multiple times to other people. It is dishonest and it makes you a liar, over something as dumb as a technical disagreement.

by dvogel 3y ago

lurking15 3y ago

Yes htmx is an augmentation of the browser, specifically through enhancing HTML by way of JS. The idea is that JS frameworks became popular due to the lack of additional hypermedia controls which are the basis for how agents (users) interact with websites through hypermedia clients (browsers).

troupo 3y ago

> Once I understood that htmx is explicitly trying to move the boundary of the hypermedia client a lot of that discomfort melted away. What do you mean by "moving the boundary of hypermedia client"? HTMX tries to claim that hypermedia to only applies to HTMX because something something browsers and html. Simply put, anything that talks HTTP and understands responses from a server is a hypermedia client to an extent. You can create a client that only accepts base32-encoded cat gifs, and that will be a hypermedia client (in its infancy).

wild_egg 3y ago
> Simply put, anything that talks HTTP and understands responses from a server is a hypermedia client to an extent. No, anything that understands hypermedia responses is a hypermedia client. Cat GIFs are not hypermedia so a cat GIF viewer is not a hypermedia client Maybe I'm overly grumpy this morning but words do actually have meanings that we can look up and refer to
- troupo 3y ago
  Yeah, I went overboard with the example. The issue is that HTMX tries to take over the concept of hypermedia as if it means only HTMX and whatever HTMX is doing :)
- paulddraper 3y ago
  > words do actually have meanings that we can look up and refer to It's odd to insist on strict word choice when transferring GIF images using the hypertext transfer protocol.
  - masklinn 3y ago
    It's not though? Gifs are media, but they are not hypermedia because they don't support hypertext (can't link to to other media). As such, they're ancillary sub-resources to hypermedia but not themselves hypermedia.
    - flir 3y ago
      If you're going to get that picky (and please be aware I'm only doing this for the sake of the argument) media can never be hypermedia in the absence of the client. HTML opened in notepad is just text. Cat GIFs, rendered in the correct client, would absolutely be hypermedia (you could inline link data as QR codes, if you felt like being perverse). Hypermedia starts with the client, not with the file format.
      - ibotty 3y ago
        You are the one being overly picky. Of course given this gif-hypermedia-client your gif is hypermedia. But the client you mentioned above is not. How you transfer the data is irrelevant BTW. I don't get why you include that in your argument.
      - recursivedoubts 3y ago
        I agree that a hypermedia can't act properly within the uniform interface constraint, without a hypermedia client, that is, you can't have a hypermedia system without a proper hypermedia client: https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-clients/ https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-clients/ https://hypermedia.systems/hypermedia-components/ https://hypermedia.systems/hypermedia-components/ On the other hand, there is a real difference between plain text and HTML (or HXML, don't shoot!) which is a subset of text with additional concepts layered on top of it. This is akin to how JSON (or XML) is not hypermedia, but can be used to create hypermedia such as Siren or HXML. So I still think it makes sense to discuss if a media is or is not hypermedia without reference to the client, whereas it doesn't make sense to claim it is being used as hypermedia unless it is being consumed by a properly written hypermedia client. To make my thinking concrete, I believe Siren would continue to be hypermedia, even if it wasn't be consumed properly by a client, but then also you could not describe that pairing as a hypermedia system. (This is one reason I focus on the systemic nature of hypermedia, rather than solely on hypermedia formats) Semantic nitpicking perhaps, but then hypermedia discussions appear to tend to invite this sort of thing.
AmpsterMan 3y ago
Htmx posits that current browsers aren't "truly" hypermedia since only anchor tags and forms can initiate GET/POST requests. It is more of a tech demo showing what client with ANY tag being able to do requests would look like. That's why whether it is library/framework is besides the point. The author posits that these features should be in the spec, and tries as closely as possible to show what something might look like if we had it in the spec
- troupo 3y ago
  > The author posits that these features should be in the spec Does he? The author pretends that his library is what hypertext and hypermedia are as envisioned by Time Berners-Lee and Roy Fielding, and that his approach is the only true representation of both. And that's about it. Nothing about "this should be in the spec"
  - dventimi 3y ago
    > The author pretends that his library is what hypertext and hypermedia are as envisioned by Time Berners-Lee and Roy Fielding, and that his approach is the only true representation of both. Does he? Evidence or it didn't happen.
    - troupo 3y ago
      They literally have an entire book written to contort those definitions to mean HTMX
      - dventimi 3y ago
        Then it should be easy for you to find at least one passage that demonstrates that.
  - joedevon 3y ago
    You are missing the spirit of the whole thing. HTMX is a polyfill for the future state of browsers.
recursivedoubts 3y ago
you keep saying this despite the fact that I explicitly include https://hyperview.org https://hyperview.org as an example of another hypermedia in https://hypermedia.systems https://hypermedia.systems. I am very open to other types of hypermedia and often refer people to “RESTful Web Cliebts” by mark amundsen (https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/restful-web-clients/9781491921890/ https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/restful-web-clients/978...) to learn how build them.
- troupo 3y ago
  > I am very open to other types of hypermedia Of course you're not. And I already pointed it out to you elsewhere. Your entire writing and marketing revolves around one idea, and one idea only: HTML is "natural hypermedia", and everything else is not.
  - cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
    At this point you are very loudly and publicly grinding your axe to the point that you’re telling someone to their face that they don’t understand their own viewpoint. Putting aside briefly the insanity and futility of that, it makes for a bad experience for literally everyone else.
  - recursivedoubts 3y ago
    OK, this is just completely unreasonable of you. HTML is a natural hypermedia in that it has native hypermedia controls. JSON & XML are not natural hypermedia because they do not, however hypermedia controls can be added on top of them, as in the case of HXML/hyperview, which, again I include in my book on hypermedia systems. There are many other hypermedias, such as Siren, which uses JSON as a base, and I have never claimed otherwise. Mark Amundsen, perhaps the worlds expert on hypermedia, wrote the forward to my book, Hypermedia Systems, and found nothing objectionable and much worthwhile in it. I hate to be rude but you didn't understand, or refused to acknowledge, the basic meaning and usage of the term 'hypermedia control' until I cited a W3C document using it. While I certainly understand people can dislike the conceptual basis of htmx, its admittedly idiosyncratic implementation or the way we talk about it, at this point I have tried to engage you multiple times in good faith here and have been rewarded with baseless accusations of things I haven't said and don't believe. At this point, to be an honest person, you need to apologize for misrepresenting what I am saying multiple times to other people. It is dishonest and it makes you a liar, over something as dumb as a technical disagreement.