4 ms·

In Japanese there are two words for some numbers. For example number 4 is yon or shi and for 7 it is shichi or nana. For announcements on train platforms they d

by jansan 3y ago

In Japanese there are two words for some numbers. For example number 4 is yon or shi and for 7 it is shichi or nana. For announcements on train platforms they do not use shichi, because it sounds like "ichi", which is the word for 1. Also, I think they do not use "shi" for 4 for the same reason. (I hope I got this right, have not studied Japanese for 25 years). Maybe someone from Japan can clarify if the are talking about the English word "number 1" or if they mean the japanese term "dai ichi".

sneak 3y ago
English is used for air radio communications, per ICAO.
- arghwhat 3y ago
  This is only a recommendation by ICAO where international traffic is expected. Towers and pilots speaking the local language is common outside the busy international routes.
gwill 3y ago
it's the english phrase. all pilots and ATC in the world are required to use english. it seems like the use of "number 1" made them think they were ready to take off, not that it sounded like a similar phrase. someone please correct me if i'm wrong.
- Leherenn 3y ago
  That's not true, you can use the local language as well. What is required is to answer in English if prompted in English. Though nowadays most major airports probably are English only, it wasn't so long ago that pilots were complaining that most of the traffic at CDG was in French for instance. For what it's worth, I believe Japan is very strict in the English only however.
  - gwill 3y ago
    thanks for the info!
- kqr 3y ago
  > it's the english phrase. all pilots and ATC in the world are required to use english. This is not strictly true, is it? They should be able to speak English, but they are not required to use it. https://aviation.stackexchange.com/a/14254 https://aviation.stackexchange.com/a/14254
  - gwill 3y ago
    yea my bad, just required to be able to use it and respond in english when prompted in english.
Uvix 3y ago
They avoid using the "shi" or "shichi" forms because "shi" also means "death".
- arghwhat 3y ago
  Same in China with 4 (sì), although they have no issue with 7 (qī). It makes a mess of hotel floors that try to cater to many cultures.
  - dawnofdusk 3y ago
    qī and sì sound nothing alike in any dialect of (Mandarin) Chinese I can think of, to Chinese speakers. Shi and shichi literally contain the exact same phoneme.
    - arghwhat 3y ago
      Someone unfamiliar with the languages might have thought that if they share the issue and even (within their phonetic limitations) pronunciation for the number 4 that this would also apply to 7, hence why I clarified that this was not the case.
kizunajp 3y ago
They do not use 第一 (dai ichi), they use ナンバーワン (namba- wan). Source: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20240109/k10014314211000.html https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20240109/k10014314211000.ht... Also it seems like this is a temporary measure (seeing NHK says "対策では当面、事前に出発順は伝えずに離陸許可を出すとしています。" )? Perhaps it will come back once the non-civilian traffic goes back to pre-earthquake levels?
discordance 3y ago
There are many ways of counting in Japanese, such as a counting system based on shape, or people, or numbers. numbers: ichi, ni, san, .... or hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu, people: hitori, futari, nin .. Or by shape: hon (thin objects), ko (small round objects), mai (flat objects).
adrian_b 3y ago
For all the numbers from 1 to 10 there are 2 series of numeral words because one series is of native Japanese words while the other are Chinese words in Japanese pronunciation. After the adoption of the Chinese writing, all the signs have been taken together with their Chinese pronunciation, which has introduced a huge number of Chinese words in the Japanese language. The Chinese words are used mostly in the compound words that are written with 2 or more kanji, but also for some simple words. For example, 4 is "yon" in native Japanese and "shi" in the Chinese variant that has been included in Japanese; 3 is "mi" in native Japanese and "san" in the Chinese variant, and so on. There are contexts where the native Japanese numerals are preferred, but the native words for 4 and 7 are used more often than the others to avoid "shi" (Chinese death), as others have already mentioned. The native Japanese words appear quite different from the Chinese words that form a large part of modern Japanese. The native words are usually much longer, with many syllables and with a large proportion of vowels versus consonants. Many native words seem structurally more similar to the words of the Austronesian languages, like those of the natives of Taiwan, who inhabited the Southern neighbor of Japan before the migration of Chinese into it during the last half of a millennium.

by jansan 3y ago

sneak 3y ago

English is used for air radio communications, per ICAO.

arghwhat 3y ago
This is only a recommendation by ICAO where international traffic is expected. Towers and pilots speaking the local language is common outside the busy international routes.

gwill 3y ago

it's the english phrase. all pilots and ATC in the world are required to use english. it seems like the use of "number 1" made them think they were ready to take off, not that it sounded like a similar phrase. someone please correct me if i'm wrong.

Leherenn 3y ago
That's not true, you can use the local language as well. What is required is to answer in English if prompted in English. Though nowadays most major airports probably are English only, it wasn't so long ago that pilots were complaining that most of the traffic at CDG was in French for instance. For what it's worth, I believe Japan is very strict in the English only however.
- gwill 3y ago
  thanks for the info!
kqr 3y ago
> it's the english phrase. all pilots and ATC in the world are required to use english. This is not strictly true, is it? They should be able to speak English, but they are not required to use it. https://aviation.stackexchange.com/a/14254 https://aviation.stackexchange.com/a/14254
- gwill 3y ago
  yea my bad, just required to be able to use it and respond in english when prompted in english.

Uvix 3y ago

They avoid using the "shi" or "shichi" forms because "shi" also means "death".

arghwhat 3y ago
Same in China with 4 (sì), although they have no issue with 7 (qī). It makes a mess of hotel floors that try to cater to many cultures.
- dawnofdusk 3y ago
  qī and sì sound nothing alike in any dialect of (Mandarin) Chinese I can think of, to Chinese speakers. Shi and shichi literally contain the exact same phoneme.
  - arghwhat 3y ago
    Someone unfamiliar with the languages might have thought that if they share the issue and even (within their phonetic limitations) pronunciation for the number 4 that this would also apply to 7, hence why I clarified that this was not the case.

kizunajp 3y ago

They do not use 第一 (dai ichi), they use ナンバーワン (namba- wan). Source: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20240109/k10014314211000.html https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20240109/k10014314211000.ht... Also it seems like this is a temporary measure (seeing NHK says "対策では当面、事前に出発順は伝えずに離陸許可を出すとしています。" )? Perhaps it will come back once the non-civilian traffic goes back to pre-earthquake levels?

discordance 3y ago

There are many ways of counting in Japanese, such as a counting system based on shape, or people, or numbers. numbers: ichi, ni, san, .... or hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu, people: hitori, futari, nin .. Or by shape: hon (thin objects), ko (small round objects), mai (flat objects).

adrian_b 3y ago

For all the numbers from 1 to 10 there are 2 series of numeral words because one series is of native Japanese words while the other are Chinese words in Japanese pronunciation. After the adoption of the Chinese writing, all the signs have been taken together with their Chinese pronunciation, which has introduced a huge number of Chinese words in the Japanese language. The Chinese words are used mostly in the compound words that are written with 2 or more kanji, but also for some simple words. For example, 4 is "yon" in native Japanese and "shi" in the Chinese variant that has been included in Japanese; 3 is "mi" in native Japanese and "san" in the Chinese variant, and so on. There are contexts where the native Japanese numerals are preferred, but the native words for 4 and 7 are used more often than the others to avoid "shi" (Chinese death), as others have already mentioned. The native Japanese words appear quite different from the Chinese words that form a large part of modern Japanese. The native words are usually much longer, with many syllables and with a large proportion of vowels versus consonants. Many native words seem structurally more similar to the words of the Austronesian languages, like those of the natives of Taiwan, who inhabited the Southern neighbor of Japan before the migration of Chinese into it during the last half of a millennium.