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Those are very subjective "negative effects". And it is perfectly possible that the American people is perfectly willing to accept those in exchange for the 50%

by lucumo 3y ago

Those are very subjective "negative effects". And it is perfectly possible that the American people is perfectly willing to accept those in exchange for the 50% extra household income compared to Germany. I know I would.

johannes1234321 3y ago
Well, in exchange for the lower salary I get less crumbling infrastructure, a mostly working health system, in average better schools without need for extra security, ... and I get better protection from being fired in the spot and better unemployment benefits. All that then leads to cities without no-go areas, where kids can play outside alone. While of course downsides are that I don't have an as big house and no big backyard.
- trashtester 3y ago
  Don't forget that European media love to focus on the worst aspects of the US. Not every school in the US requires armed guards and infrastructure is pretty good in many places. And in particular, if you have a senior position at a FAANG company, you make enough money to put away significant savings for a rainy day, you get access to healthcare that is typically more modern than what is available in Europe, and you don't need to expose yourself to those inner cities unless you want to. And talking about no-go-zones. They're starting to pop up in Europe now, too, there are plenty of them in Sweden. I wouldn't put all the blame for them on capitalism. Rather, such phenomena seem to be more associated with cases of ethnic or social minorities that feel alienated by society.
- lucumo 3y ago
  > less crumbling infrastructure German infrastructure is crumbling too. I wouldn't hold it up as some shining beacon. > and I get better protection from being fired in the spot Yes, that's the difference in attitudes people are talking about. It's the safety of keeping what you have versus the drive to reach for better. Societies' outcomes reflect that. More diversity in outcomes in the US, but also better in the median.
  - trashtester 3y ago
    > More diversity in outcomes in the US, but also better in the median. To be fair, the median household in the US doesn't have that much more disposable income if taking healthcare and child care costs into account, especially if they're simultaneously expected to save up a 1-2 year buffer and maybe more if they want a comfortable retirement. But for the top 20%, which includes many tech workers, the difference is larger.
dns_snek 3y ago
Too bad that extra income isn't reflected in national happiness scores [1], the ultimate KPI that anyone really cares about, deep down. [1] https://happiness-report.s3.amazonaws.com/2023/WHR+23.pdf https://happiness-report.s3.amazonaws.com/2023/WHR+23.pdf
- lucumo 3y ago
  Would you care to precisify which part of those two-column 166 A4-pages supports your claim?
  - dns_snek 3y ago
    Page 36, "Figure 2.1: Ranking of Happiness based on a three-year-average 2020–2022"
    - lucumo 3y ago
      That chart doesn't support your claim that higher household income isn't reflected in happiness scores. Multiple factors are at play in those scores. The report mentions a few, but I couldn't find how much each correlates with the self-reported life evaluation. As a funny BTW, the country used in this thread as a direct comparison, Germany, is indistinguishable from the US in this table.
      - dijit 3y ago
        His point was that it's not the only factor, and if you read that paper he cited there is a breakdown of exactly what factors contributed to happiness. A social support network was one of the highest ranked, much higher than GDP per capita (the wealth of a nation, which can be used as a proxy for personal income if you have a Gini index to weight it against). Finland comes out well ahead even if you weight it against Gini, and Finnish developers aren't earning more than US folks by a country mile.

by lucumo 3y ago

johannes1234321 3y ago

Well, in exchange for the lower salary I get less crumbling infrastructure, a mostly working health system, in average better schools without need for extra security, ... and I get better protection from being fired in the spot and better unemployment benefits. All that then leads to cities without no-go areas, where kids can play outside alone. While of course downsides are that I don't have an as big house and no big backyard.

trashtester 3y ago
Don't forget that European media love to focus on the worst aspects of the US. Not every school in the US requires armed guards and infrastructure is pretty good in many places. And in particular, if you have a senior position at a FAANG company, you make enough money to put away significant savings for a rainy day, you get access to healthcare that is typically more modern than what is available in Europe, and you don't need to expose yourself to those inner cities unless you want to. And talking about no-go-zones. They're starting to pop up in Europe now, too, there are plenty of them in Sweden. I wouldn't put all the blame for them on capitalism. Rather, such phenomena seem to be more associated with cases of ethnic or social minorities that feel alienated by society.
lucumo 3y ago
> less crumbling infrastructure German infrastructure is crumbling too. I wouldn't hold it up as some shining beacon. > and I get better protection from being fired in the spot Yes, that's the difference in attitudes people are talking about. It's the safety of keeping what you have versus the drive to reach for better. Societies' outcomes reflect that. More diversity in outcomes in the US, but also better in the median.
- trashtester 3y ago
  > More diversity in outcomes in the US, but also better in the median. To be fair, the median household in the US doesn't have that much more disposable income if taking healthcare and child care costs into account, especially if they're simultaneously expected to save up a 1-2 year buffer and maybe more if they want a comfortable retirement. But for the top 20%, which includes many tech workers, the difference is larger.

dns_snek 3y ago

Too bad that extra income isn't reflected in national happiness scores [1], the ultimate KPI that anyone really cares about, deep down. [1] https://happiness-report.s3.amazonaws.com/2023/WHR+23.pdf https://happiness-report.s3.amazonaws.com/2023/WHR+23.pdf

lucumo 3y ago
Would you care to precisify which part of those two-column 166 A4-pages supports your claim?
- dns_snek 3y ago
  Page 36, "Figure 2.1: Ranking of Happiness based on a three-year-average 2020–2022"
  - lucumo 3y ago
    That chart doesn't support your claim that higher household income isn't reflected in happiness scores. Multiple factors are at play in those scores. The report mentions a few, but I couldn't find how much each correlates with the self-reported life evaluation. As a funny BTW, the country used in this thread as a direct comparison, Germany, is indistinguishable from the US in this table.
    - dijit 3y ago
      His point was that it's not the only factor, and if you read that paper he cited there is a breakdown of exactly what factors contributed to happiness. A social support network was one of the highest ranked, much higher than GDP per capita (the wealth of a nation, which can be used as a proxy for personal income if you have a Gini index to weight it against). Finland comes out well ahead even if you weight it against Gini, and Finnish developers aren't earning more than US folks by a country mile.