6 ms·

I wonder what does this mean for the "Everyone can code" movement (bootcamps, initiatives within Google and the like, government funding). They keep saying that

I wonder what does this mean for the "Everyone can code" movement (bootcamps, initiatives within Google and the like, government funding). They keep saying that you can get a high paying job if you do a 9 month course. When the best of the field are getting laid off, I wonder how long will the "Everyone can code" movement survive

gumballindie 3y ago
Oh but they will get high pay compared to their bartending job.
- bossyTeacher 3y ago
  will they? The job market is full of high quality experienced devs. I don't see why any company would hire for an inexperienced dev when they can get an experienced one for cheap. It's like buying Walmart cheese for $5 when you can get high end cheese for $10. No brainer
  - likewize 3y ago
    Oh wow, comparing cheese to developers is a pretty poor analogy.
    - Panini_Jones 3y ago
      Is it? Are you saying cheese is too good to be compared to us? I knew it.
    - jcuenod 3y ago
      It's with respect to the smell
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
codingdave 3y ago
That concept doesn't hold water. If everyone can code, it won't be a high paying skill. And soon, it will really be true that everyone can code. Schools are teaching computational thought as early as kindergarten, so the next generation is growing up with coding being a basic literacy skill. Of course, knowing how to code and being good at creating software are two different things. Just like knowing how to write and being able to succeed as a novelist are two different things. But that is also why the "best of the field" get laid off - why pay FAANG salaries to get the best, when entry/mid-level salaries to get "good enough" still meets business needs?
- bossyTeacher 3y ago
  I know. But it has been parrotted in the last decade even by the (usually) smart folks of HN
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mdip 3y ago
  I think about it this way -- when I was a kid, being able to navigate a command prompt (DOS!) put you in a category way ahead of most adults using computers every day. Of course, normal users use the terminal as much now as they do, then, but mostly because "they don't ever have to"[0], but yet they're able to accomplish things that might have been relegated to the category of "computer programming" just a decade ago. Programming software is just another way of using a computer in a more advanced manner than mere mortals. Programming gets simpler, more enter the field, junior developers become more powerful and the difference between the expert and the novice increases or decreases depending on which direction you look at it from. In 1986, my Dad, a non-programmer, and a "power user" but not expert in PCs, used Lotus 1-2-3 to design an invoicing and accounting tool that had a UI, forms, printed formatted output and tracked everything in a database-like manner in a file. I called him a non-programmer, but was he? [0] When your PC boots into a `C>`, you better know what to type to get it to do something other than that.
- talldatethrow 3y ago
  I keep hearing that schools are teaching 'computational thought' and programming, but then I also hear that kids can't do math at anywhere near the expected level, can't read at their expected level, and have zero attention span. Either someone is lying or very wrong.
favabeanzzz 3y ago
Erm, who says the folks being laid off are the "best of the field?"
- bossyTeacher 3y ago
  Best of the field was an exaggeration but I just meant very experienced devs. For newbie devs, it is the same. People that either in paper, in practice or both are better than your average $NONAME company dev. To get a job at FAANG, you need to be a good programmer. The folks at FAANGs aren't regular devs. And they are being laid off.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Some are, some aren't. The decisions about who to lay off are not generally connected to how good they are.
- alexeiz 3y ago
  Supposedly Google only hires the best of the best. Now it appears they hired a lot of mediocrity? So much for their lauded hiring process.
  - talldatethrow 3y ago
    I've posted previously that I knew someone that went to one of the most joke low level public schools around (CSU East Bay - I audited a few classes with them even), and they were so goofy you had to help the through understanding the movie plot of basic movies even. They were fun to hang out with, but honestly pretty goofy. They were also a bit lazy, never really learning much about their field. They were hired as a product manager by Google, based on their years of being a scrum master or whatever at a few other bay companies.
    - majani 3y ago
      "Fun to hang out with" takes you further than you think. If the person is also attractive then he has a giant halo effect going for him
JohnFen 3y ago
> They keep saying that you can get a high paying job if you do a 9 month course. It's good if this way of thinking dies. It does a disservice to those taking the course, and it does a disservice to the industry.
sk11001 3y ago
Recently the only people who have been saying that it’s easy to become a programmer in a few months are the ones selling you the way to get there.
- superfishal 3y ago
  THIS
- bossyTeacher 3y ago
  > only people who have been saying that it’s easy to become a programmer in a few months are the ones selling you the way to get there Hasn't this group of people always comprised like 90% of the Everyone Can Code group?
taylodl 3y ago
"High Paying Job" simply means more than minimum wage. There are a lot of Americans for which $40K to $50K income would be considered good. $60K to $70K would be considered great.

gumballindie 3y ago

Oh but they will get high pay compared to their bartending job.

bossyTeacher 3y ago
will they? The job market is full of high quality experienced devs. I don't see why any company would hire for an inexperienced dev when they can get an experienced one for cheap. It's like buying Walmart cheese for $5 when you can get high end cheese for $10. No brainer
- likewize 3y ago
  Oh wow, comparing cheese to developers is a pretty poor analogy.
  - Panini_Jones 3y ago
    Is it? Are you saying cheese is too good to be compared to us? I knew it.
  - jcuenod 3y ago
    It's with respect to the smell
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

codingdave 3y ago

That concept doesn't hold water. If everyone can code, it won't be a high paying skill. And soon, it will really be true that everyone can code. Schools are teaching computational thought as early as kindergarten, so the next generation is growing up with coding being a basic literacy skill. Of course, knowing how to code and being good at creating software are two different things. Just like knowing how to write and being able to succeed as a novelist are two different things. But that is also why the "best of the field" get laid off - why pay FAANG salaries to get the best, when entry/mid-level salaries to get "good enough" still meets business needs?

bossyTeacher 3y ago
I know. But it has been parrotted in the last decade even by the (usually) smart folks of HN
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mdip 3y ago
I think about it this way -- when I was a kid, being able to navigate a command prompt (DOS!) put you in a category way ahead of most adults using computers every day. Of course, normal users use the terminal as much now as they do, then, but mostly because "they don't ever have to"[0], but yet they're able to accomplish things that might have been relegated to the category of "computer programming" just a decade ago. Programming software is just another way of using a computer in a more advanced manner than mere mortals. Programming gets simpler, more enter the field, junior developers become more powerful and the difference between the expert and the novice increases or decreases depending on which direction you look at it from. In 1986, my Dad, a non-programmer, and a "power user" but not expert in PCs, used Lotus 1-2-3 to design an invoicing and accounting tool that had a UI, forms, printed formatted output and tracked everything in a database-like manner in a file. I called him a non-programmer, but was he? [0] When your PC boots into a `C>`, you better know what to type to get it to do something other than that.
talldatethrow 3y ago
I keep hearing that schools are teaching 'computational thought' and programming, but then I also hear that kids can't do math at anywhere near the expected level, can't read at their expected level, and have zero attention span. Either someone is lying or very wrong.

favabeanzzz 3y ago

Erm, who says the folks being laid off are the "best of the field?"

bossyTeacher 3y ago
Best of the field was an exaggeration but I just meant very experienced devs. For newbie devs, it is the same. People that either in paper, in practice or both are better than your average $NONAME company dev. To get a job at FAANG, you need to be a good programmer. The folks at FAANGs aren't regular devs. And they are being laid off.
JohnFen 3y ago
Some are, some aren't. The decisions about who to lay off are not generally connected to how good they are.
alexeiz 3y ago
Supposedly Google only hires the best of the best. Now it appears they hired a lot of mediocrity? So much for their lauded hiring process.
- talldatethrow 3y ago
  I've posted previously that I knew someone that went to one of the most joke low level public schools around (CSU East Bay - I audited a few classes with them even), and they were so goofy you had to help the through understanding the movie plot of basic movies even. They were fun to hang out with, but honestly pretty goofy. They were also a bit lazy, never really learning much about their field. They were hired as a product manager by Google, based on their years of being a scrum master or whatever at a few other bay companies.
  - majani 3y ago
    "Fun to hang out with" takes you further than you think. If the person is also attractive then he has a giant halo effect going for him

JohnFen 3y ago

> They keep saying that you can get a high paying job if you do a 9 month course. It's good if this way of thinking dies. It does a disservice to those taking the course, and it does a disservice to the industry.

sk11001 3y ago

Recently the only people who have been saying that it’s easy to become a programmer in a few months are the ones selling you the way to get there.

superfishal 3y ago
THIS
bossyTeacher 3y ago
> only people who have been saying that it’s easy to become a programmer in a few months are the ones selling you the way to get there Hasn't this group of people always comprised like 90% of the Everyone Can Code group?

taylodl 3y ago

"High Paying Job" simply means more than minimum wage. There are a lot of Americans for which $40K to $50K income would be considered good. $60K to $70K would be considered great.