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The correlation between vegans and health is muddied by the fact that vegans put far more thought into their diet than the average person. Its entirely possibl

The correlation between vegans and health is muddied by the fact that vegans put far more thought into their diet than the average person. Its entirely possible not eating meat is orthoganal to health and its just that they actually care about what they eat. No evidence of this, but I also suspect that vegans care more about their health in other weights too (e.g. exercising, not smoking, etc). If they can keep up with a vegan diet, they likely also have the discipline to keep up with exercise regimes and keeping good habits.

carlmr 3y ago
Not just care about health, but they're on a very restrictive diet. Many of my vegan friends can barely find something to eat when we're going out. As an omnivore you can eat anywhere, as a vegetarian, you can eat almost anywhere. As a vegan, at least in Germany, it's still somewhat restrictive. If you're consistently refraining from eating, then you're likely to just consume a lot less calories. Another factor here is that most restaurants cook for attractiveness, not for health. Adding copious amounts of butter, oil and sugar can make a lot of food taste better at the expense of a much higher caloric intake. I have an overweight vegan friend. He eats fries everywhere. Fat and carbs makes vegans fat, too.
- lookACamel 3y ago
  > they're on a very restrictive diet. I'd argue it's basically entirely this. The modern food environment is incredible (over)-stimulating. Food is ubiquitous and abundant, with a dizzying array of novel variations. Food cues enticing you to eat are ever present. Being vegan has the accidental side effect of counteracting much of this. A lot of the built-up food infrastructure suddenly becomes non-existent. Imagine. You're walking into a busy mall in a foreign country. On your left, there's a café advertising a variety of tempting pastries. Your sister told you about that cafe. She loves their cream cheese cake. To your right, the sizzling flames from a steakhouse grab your attention. Moving to another level, you spot an ice cream parlor showcasing a new flavor: Strawberry Daifuku. But all this has to wait, because you're heading straight for the ramen shop you've heard so much about. They're known for their amazing pork bone broth. It's why your foodie friends have chosen to meet up here. Now if you were vegan, all of that is just ... gone. Possibly the foodie friends as well ;) Non-vegans don't think about this but they recognize it subconsciously -- most non-vegans would balk at having to go vegan even for a short time, just due to the inconvenience alone. Some of the aspects of the modern food environment come back when you figure out where to look of course, but even the even a savvy vegan consumer won't encounter the same level of choice, variety and catering and let's not forget cost-competitiveness that a modern omnivore experiences.
- at_compile_time 3y ago
  It's only restrictive in a society that can't go a single meal without animal products. I don't eat animal flesh, secretions, or eggs. That leaves legumes, fungi, vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds and grains. A veritable cornucopia spanning three biological kingdoms if we're counting fermentation. The restaurant scene seems to be a lot better in Canada. Most restaurants have vegan options. My work's Christmas lunch was at a steakhouse of all places, and I still had several options to choose from. Most of what I refrain from eating is the junk food that seems to suffuse work and social life: donuts, cookies, and cake leftover from one meeting or another, and buttery/cheesy/eggy snacks at social gathering.
  - carlmr 3y ago
    >A veritable cornucopia spanning three biological kingdoms if we're counting fermentation. I didn't claim anything counter to that. I can cook plenty of tasty vegan food. But if I go out there's not much left in my country to eat. You have to go to a handful of specialized vegan restaurants in the city to have even somewhat a choice. Otherwise it's fries or noodles with tomato sauce, which personally I wouldn't consider a meal. That it's better in Canada? Great. I believe you, but I've travelled a lot, and I haven't seen many places that have such a variety of vegan food as USA and Canada. Most of Europe is very meat heavy, vegetarian is still easy, vegan is picky eating. In East Asia there are vegan options, but often tasteless, because they're meant for Buddhist monks. Otherwise even vegetarian is somewhat difficult. In India vegetarian is easier than meat, especially considering food safety. Had 0 gastric issues with vegetarian food, while one bad piece of meat almost ended the trip for a friend of mine. But a lot of dishes have butter and milk, so vegan again is difficult. I'm really not saying it's difficult to cook great vegan food, just that it limits your ability to eat outside in most of the world, which probably influences average BMI more than the diet itself.
Aaargh20318 3y ago
> The correlation between vegans and health is muddied by the fact that vegans put far more thought into their diet than the average person It's also likely that they simply eat less because vegan food just isn't very good.
- Snow_Falls 3y ago
  Chips are vegan you know. As is most sauce.
  - hnra 3y ago
    Interestingly (at least in Sweden) most chips used to not be vegan, but it's getting better. A lot of chips contain animal based flavor enhancers.
    - Snow_Falls 3y ago
      I stand corrected!
    - Aaargh20318 3y ago
      > A lot of chips contain animal based flavor enhancers. I think this is mainly as a response to people using plant based fats for deep frying. Traditionally they were fried in beef tallow, no need for any flavour enhancers if you fry them in beef fat.
  - Aaargh20318 3y ago
    Good example. Fries used to be (when I was a kid) deep fried in beef tallow. Nowadays it's usually plant based fats and while still good, it's not nearly as good as those fried in beef tallow. Also, fries need mayo, which is made with eggs.
- at_compile_time 3y ago
  There's vegan food, the processed, pale imitations of animal products you'll find in the health food aisle, and there's vegan food: rich, hearty vegetable and bean soup, fresh rustic sourdough bread, and vegetables roasted until they caramelize. Most people would think these foods boring, but that's because they've only ever had the shitty, mass-produced versions.

carlmr 3y ago

Not just care about health, but they're on a very restrictive diet. Many of my vegan friends can barely find something to eat when we're going out. As an omnivore you can eat anywhere, as a vegetarian, you can eat almost anywhere. As a vegan, at least in Germany, it's still somewhat restrictive. If you're consistently refraining from eating, then you're likely to just consume a lot less calories. Another factor here is that most restaurants cook for attractiveness, not for health. Adding copious amounts of butter, oil and sugar can make a lot of food taste better at the expense of a much higher caloric intake. I have an overweight vegan friend. He eats fries everywhere. Fat and carbs makes vegans fat, too.

lookACamel 3y ago
> they're on a very restrictive diet. I'd argue it's basically entirely this. The modern food environment is incredible (over)-stimulating. Food is ubiquitous and abundant, with a dizzying array of novel variations. Food cues enticing you to eat are ever present. Being vegan has the accidental side effect of counteracting much of this. A lot of the built-up food infrastructure suddenly becomes non-existent. Imagine. You're walking into a busy mall in a foreign country. On your left, there's a café advertising a variety of tempting pastries. Your sister told you about that cafe. She loves their cream cheese cake. To your right, the sizzling flames from a steakhouse grab your attention. Moving to another level, you spot an ice cream parlor showcasing a new flavor: Strawberry Daifuku. But all this has to wait, because you're heading straight for the ramen shop you've heard so much about. They're known for their amazing pork bone broth. It's why your foodie friends have chosen to meet up here. Now if you were vegan, all of that is just ... gone. Possibly the foodie friends as well ;) Non-vegans don't think about this but they recognize it subconsciously -- most non-vegans would balk at having to go vegan even for a short time, just due to the inconvenience alone. Some of the aspects of the modern food environment come back when you figure out where to look of course, but even the even a savvy vegan consumer won't encounter the same level of choice, variety and catering and let's not forget cost-competitiveness that a modern omnivore experiences.
at_compile_time 3y ago
It's only restrictive in a society that can't go a single meal without animal products. I don't eat animal flesh, secretions, or eggs. That leaves legumes, fungi, vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds and grains. A veritable cornucopia spanning three biological kingdoms if we're counting fermentation. The restaurant scene seems to be a lot better in Canada. Most restaurants have vegan options. My work's Christmas lunch was at a steakhouse of all places, and I still had several options to choose from. Most of what I refrain from eating is the junk food that seems to suffuse work and social life: donuts, cookies, and cake leftover from one meeting or another, and buttery/cheesy/eggy snacks at social gathering.
- carlmr 3y ago
  >A veritable cornucopia spanning three biological kingdoms if we're counting fermentation. I didn't claim anything counter to that. I can cook plenty of tasty vegan food. But if I go out there's not much left in my country to eat. You have to go to a handful of specialized vegan restaurants in the city to have even somewhat a choice. Otherwise it's fries or noodles with tomato sauce, which personally I wouldn't consider a meal. That it's better in Canada? Great. I believe you, but I've travelled a lot, and I haven't seen many places that have such a variety of vegan food as USA and Canada. Most of Europe is very meat heavy, vegetarian is still easy, vegan is picky eating. In East Asia there are vegan options, but often tasteless, because they're meant for Buddhist monks. Otherwise even vegetarian is somewhat difficult. In India vegetarian is easier than meat, especially considering food safety. Had 0 gastric issues with vegetarian food, while one bad piece of meat almost ended the trip for a friend of mine. But a lot of dishes have butter and milk, so vegan again is difficult. I'm really not saying it's difficult to cook great vegan food, just that it limits your ability to eat outside in most of the world, which probably influences average BMI more than the diet itself.

Aaargh20318 3y ago

> The correlation between vegans and health is muddied by the fact that vegans put far more thought into their diet than the average person It's also likely that they simply eat less because vegan food just isn't very good.

Snow_Falls 3y ago
Chips are vegan you know. As is most sauce.
- hnra 3y ago
  Interestingly (at least in Sweden) most chips used to not be vegan, but it's getting better. A lot of chips contain animal based flavor enhancers.
  - Snow_Falls 3y ago
    I stand corrected!
  - Aaargh20318 3y ago
    > A lot of chips contain animal based flavor enhancers. I think this is mainly as a response to people using plant based fats for deep frying. Traditionally they were fried in beef tallow, no need for any flavour enhancers if you fry them in beef fat.
- Aaargh20318 3y ago
  Good example. Fries used to be (when I was a kid) deep fried in beef tallow. Nowadays it's usually plant based fats and while still good, it's not nearly as good as those fried in beef tallow. Also, fries need mayo, which is made with eggs.
at_compile_time 3y ago
There's vegan food, the processed, pale imitations of animal products you'll find in the health food aisle, and there's vegan food: rich, hearty vegetable and bean soup, fresh rustic sourdough bread, and vegetables roasted until they caramelize. Most people would think these foods boring, but that's because they've only ever had the shitty, mass-produced versions.