5 ms·

Not that alone, but a lot of the factors that hold European companies back compared to American ones when it comes to innovation come from the same ideology, wh

Not that alone, but a lot of the factors that hold European companies back compared to American ones when it comes to innovation come from the same ideology, whether it appears as regulation, taxation or a number of other factors aimed at improving safety and comfort, even if it comes at the cost of liberty and incentive.

rightbyte 3y ago
You could just as well say that US tech sector is prosperous due to using native ascii keyboards. There is no way to get a clear picture if unions limit innovation or whatever.
TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
That "liberty and incentive" is extremely unevenly distributed, which is why this thread exists. Besides - the US is clearly losing its reputation for tech competence. Between some of the world's crappiest broadband (unevenly distributed again), NASA Moon missions failing to reach the Moon, Boeing blowing their own doors off, and Google's search enshitification and inability to understand what a stable product line is - among others - the US really isn't the powerhouse of progress it thinks it is.
- trashtester 3y ago
  > That "liberty and incentive" is extremely unevenly distributed Absolutely. I said in high growth phases, it may be beneficial for employees to not organize. Once an industry stabilizes, that may change. The German model has certainly been working much better for automotive and other established industries. But even developers who have not been able to get into FAANG positions, US developer salaries are still higher than German ones, as far as I can tell. And for the ones that did get into FAANG, the difference is vast, even for entry level.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    U.S. developer salaries are also higher than in Japan and over developed salaries, even if those labor markets aren't exactly known for unionization, either.
    - trashtester 3y ago
      Fair enough, though it is possible to get the effects of a union without a union, if worker-employee relationship resembles a feudal lord-serf relationship, where the serf is bound to the lord for life, but the lord is also responsible for covering the basic needs of the serf. Obviously, Japan, China and Korea come from quite different circumstances to Europe and the US in a multitude of ways.
      - Apocryphon 3y ago
        That’s also what corporations were like in the U.S. up until the 1980s. Being lifers and having stability was commonplace.
dns_snek 3y ago
Have you considered that it might not be European companies "getting held back", but American companies unduly getting ahead by externalizing their negative effects onto society. Think social media and mental health, advertising and mass surveillance, Airbnb's business model vs displaced local population, proliferating gig economy vs exploited gig workers, for example.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- lucumo 3y ago
  Those are very subjective "negative effects". And it is perfectly possible that the American people is perfectly willing to accept those in exchange for the 50% extra household income compared to Germany. I know I would.
  - johannes1234321 3y ago
    Well, in exchange for the lower salary I get less crumbling infrastructure, a mostly working health system, in average better schools without need for extra security, ... and I get better protection from being fired in the spot and better unemployment benefits. All that then leads to cities without no-go areas, where kids can play outside alone. While of course downsides are that I don't have an as big house and no big backyard.
    - trashtester 3y ago
      Don't forget that European media love to focus on the worst aspects of the US. Not every school in the US requires armed guards and infrastructure is pretty good in many places. And in particular, if you have a senior position at a FAANG company, you make enough money to put away significant savings for a rainy day, you get access to healthcare that is typically more modern than what is available in Europe, and you don't need to expose yourself to those inner cities unless you want to. And talking about no-go-zones. They're starting to pop up in Europe now, too, there are plenty of them in Sweden. I wouldn't put all the blame for them on capitalism. Rather, such phenomena seem to be more associated with cases of ethnic or social minorities that feel alienated by society.
dukeyukey 3y ago
> whether it appears as regulation, taxation or a number of other factors aimed at improving safety and comfort Also stuff like being bereft of energy resources (compared to American oil/gas/solar), having fucking Russia to the East, the cost of rebuilding after WW2, having lots of languages and cultures (limiting effective market size)...

rightbyte 3y ago

You could just as well say that US tech sector is prosperous due to using native ascii keyboards. There is no way to get a clear picture if unions limit innovation or whatever.

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago

That "liberty and incentive" is extremely unevenly distributed, which is why this thread exists. Besides - the US is clearly losing its reputation for tech competence. Between some of the world's crappiest broadband (unevenly distributed again), NASA Moon missions failing to reach the Moon, Boeing blowing their own doors off, and Google's search enshitification and inability to understand what a stable product line is - among others - the US really isn't the powerhouse of progress it thinks it is.

trashtester 3y ago
> That "liberty and incentive" is extremely unevenly distributed Absolutely. I said in high growth phases, it may be beneficial for employees to not organize. Once an industry stabilizes, that may change. The German model has certainly been working much better for automotive and other established industries. But even developers who have not been able to get into FAANG positions, US developer salaries are still higher than German ones, as far as I can tell. And for the ones that did get into FAANG, the difference is vast, even for entry level.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  U.S. developer salaries are also higher than in Japan and over developed salaries, even if those labor markets aren't exactly known for unionization, either.
  - trashtester 3y ago
    Fair enough, though it is possible to get the effects of a union without a union, if worker-employee relationship resembles a feudal lord-serf relationship, where the serf is bound to the lord for life, but the lord is also responsible for covering the basic needs of the serf. Obviously, Japan, China and Korea come from quite different circumstances to Europe and the US in a multitude of ways.
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      That’s also what corporations were like in the U.S. up until the 1980s. Being lifers and having stability was commonplace.

dns_snek 3y ago

Have you considered that it might not be European companies "getting held back", but American companies unduly getting ahead by externalizing their negative effects onto society. Think social media and mental health, advertising and mass surveillance, Airbnb's business model vs displaced local population, proliferating gig economy vs exploited gig workers, for example.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
lucumo 3y ago
Those are very subjective "negative effects". And it is perfectly possible that the American people is perfectly willing to accept those in exchange for the 50% extra household income compared to Germany. I know I would.
- johannes1234321 3y ago
  Well, in exchange for the lower salary I get less crumbling infrastructure, a mostly working health system, in average better schools without need for extra security, ... and I get better protection from being fired in the spot and better unemployment benefits. All that then leads to cities without no-go areas, where kids can play outside alone. While of course downsides are that I don't have an as big house and no big backyard.
  - trashtester 3y ago
    Don't forget that European media love to focus on the worst aspects of the US. Not every school in the US requires armed guards and infrastructure is pretty good in many places. And in particular, if you have a senior position at a FAANG company, you make enough money to put away significant savings for a rainy day, you get access to healthcare that is typically more modern than what is available in Europe, and you don't need to expose yourself to those inner cities unless you want to. And talking about no-go-zones. They're starting to pop up in Europe now, too, there are plenty of them in Sweden. I wouldn't put all the blame for them on capitalism. Rather, such phenomena seem to be more associated with cases of ethnic or social minorities that feel alienated by society.

dukeyukey 3y ago

> whether it appears as regulation, taxation or a number of other factors aimed at improving safety and comfort Also stuff like being bereft of energy resources (compared to American oil/gas/solar), having fucking Russia to the East, the cost of rebuilding after WW2, having lots of languages and cultures (limiting effective market size)...