7 ms·

One reason is that in times of high growth, unions tend to be a limiting factor to innovation, growth and worker compensation, especially for top performers. A

One reason is that in times of high growth, unions tend to be a limiting factor to innovation, growth and worker compensation, especially for top performers. Another is that during layoffs, unions may force the company to lay off people based on seniority instead of competency. If you compare salaries for developers between Germany and the US, I think this point becomes blatantly clear.

madeofpalk 3y ago
It's not blatantly clear that US's salaries are due to lack of developer unions.
- trashtester 3y ago
  Not that alone, but a lot of the factors that hold European companies back compared to American ones when it comes to innovation come from the same ideology, whether it appears as regulation, taxation or a number of other factors aimed at improving safety and comfort, even if it comes at the cost of liberty and incentive.
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    You could just as well say that US tech sector is prosperous due to using native ascii keyboards. There is no way to get a clear picture if unions limit innovation or whatever.
  - TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
    That "liberty and incentive" is extremely unevenly distributed, which is why this thread exists. Besides - the US is clearly losing its reputation for tech competence. Between some of the world's crappiest broadband (unevenly distributed again), NASA Moon missions failing to reach the Moon, Boeing blowing their own doors off, and Google's search enshitification and inability to understand what a stable product line is - among others - the US really isn't the powerhouse of progress it thinks it is.
    - trashtester 3y ago
      > That "liberty and incentive" is extremely unevenly distributed Absolutely. I said in high growth phases, it may be beneficial for employees to not organize. Once an industry stabilizes, that may change. The German model has certainly been working much better for automotive and other established industries. But even developers who have not been able to get into FAANG positions, US developer salaries are still higher than German ones, as far as I can tell. And for the ones that did get into FAANG, the difference is vast, even for entry level.
      - Apocryphon 3y ago
        U.S. developer salaries are also higher than in Japan and over developed salaries, even if those labor markets aren't exactly known for unionization, either.
        trashtester 3y ago
        Fair enough, though it is possible to get the effects of a union without a union, if worker-employee relationship resembles a feudal lord-serf relationship, where the serf is bound to the lord for life, but the lord is also responsible for covering the basic needs of the serf. Obviously, Japan, China and Korea come from quite different circumstances to Europe and the US in a multitude of ways.
        Apocryphon 3y ago
        That’s also what corporations were like in the U.S. up until the 1980s. Being lifers and having stability was commonplace.
  - dns_snek 3y ago
    Have you considered that it might not be European companies "getting held back", but American companies unduly getting ahead by externalizing their negative effects onto society. Think social media and mental health, advertising and mass surveillance, Airbnb's business model vs displaced local population, proliferating gig economy vs exploited gig workers, for example.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - lucumo 3y ago
      Those are very subjective "negative effects". And it is perfectly possible that the American people is perfectly willing to accept those in exchange for the 50% extra household income compared to Germany. I know I would.
      - johannes1234321 3y ago
        Well, in exchange for the lower salary I get less crumbling infrastructure, a mostly working health system, in average better schools without need for extra security, ... and I get better protection from being fired in the spot and better unemployment benefits. All that then leads to cities without no-go areas, where kids can play outside alone. While of course downsides are that I don't have an as big house and no big backyard.
        trashtester 3y ago
        Don't forget that European media love to focus on the worst aspects of the US. Not every school in the US requires armed guards and infrastructure is pretty good in many places. And in particular, if you have a senior position at a FAANG company, you make enough money to put away significant savings for a rainy day, you get access to healthcare that is typically more modern than what is available in Europe, and you don't need to expose yourself to those inner cities unless you want to. And talking about no-go-zones. They're starting to pop up in Europe now, too, there are plenty of them in Sweden. I wouldn't put all the blame for them on capitalism. Rather, such phenomena seem to be more associated with cases of ethnic or social minorities that feel alienated by society.
  - dukeyukey 3y ago
    > whether it appears as regulation, taxation or a number of other factors aimed at improving safety and comfort Also stuff like being bereft of energy resources (compared to American oil/gas/solar), having fucking Russia to the East, the cost of rebuilding after WW2, having lots of languages and cultures (limiting effective market size)...
- SideQuark 3y ago
  On the other hand, the highest paying professions don't have unions, even outside tech.
  - trashtester 3y ago
    MD's have unions where I live. They're probably the highest paying profession in the country.
    - SideQuark 3y ago
      About 7% of doctors are in local unions, and that's a recent trend. They rose to high pay without unions. https://www.axios.com/2022/11/07/more-physicians-join-unions https://www.axios.com/2022/11/07/more-physicians-join-unions
  - somewhereoutth 3y ago
    They have professional associations - the most successful unions ever, not least because they pretend not to be unions. See the medical profession as a good example.
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      Doctors, lawyers, psychiatrists, accountants...
  - maxehmookau 3y ago
    The British Medical Association would like a word. They are a union, despite the name. UK junior doctors and consultants are currently on strike!
    - SideQuark 3y ago
      US doctors avg $316k/ year. UK doctors avg 138k/yr. Thanks for more evidence of how unions "improve" outcomes. https://www.physiciansweekly.com/how-do-us-physician-salaries-compare-with-those-abroad/ https://www.physiciansweekly.com/how-do-us-physician-salarie...
wewxjfq 3y ago
I never heard of an IT union in Germany.
- johannes1234321 3y ago
  Verdi and IG Metall represent developers. (IGM a bit more traditional, when IBM built machines here; verdi tries to take over as software development is a service of some kind)
Snild 3y ago
> during layoffs, unions may force the company to lay off people based on seniority instead of competency. Interesting. That's the default by law here in Sweden, but can be negotiated with the union -- usually in exchange for better severance compensation.
- trashtester 3y ago
  I actually had Sweden in mind when writing it.
  - Snild 3y ago
    Maybe I was unclear (or I'm not getting your point): forcing the company to go only by seniority is what happens without the union.
ponector 3y ago
Low salaries in tech in EU is not related to unions. Most software jobs are outside of unions. There amount of money in the EU industry is lower and people are ok to low salaries. It is an open market: people are getting paid bare minimum. Covid and remote work shift changed a bit, though. Salaries in the EU tech grown dramatically.
ParetoOptimal 3y ago
Unions limit the innovation the worker wouldn't have gotten proper credit for anyway...meh... Sounds like a good trade for fair working conditions.

madeofpalk 3y ago

It's not blatantly clear that US's salaries are due to lack of developer unions.

trashtester 3y ago
Not that alone, but a lot of the factors that hold European companies back compared to American ones when it comes to innovation come from the same ideology, whether it appears as regulation, taxation or a number of other factors aimed at improving safety and comfort, even if it comes at the cost of liberty and incentive.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  You could just as well say that US tech sector is prosperous due to using native ascii keyboards. There is no way to get a clear picture if unions limit innovation or whatever.
- TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
  That "liberty and incentive" is extremely unevenly distributed, which is why this thread exists. Besides - the US is clearly losing its reputation for tech competence. Between some of the world's crappiest broadband (unevenly distributed again), NASA Moon missions failing to reach the Moon, Boeing blowing their own doors off, and Google's search enshitification and inability to understand what a stable product line is - among others - the US really isn't the powerhouse of progress it thinks it is.
  - trashtester 3y ago
    > That "liberty and incentive" is extremely unevenly distributed Absolutely. I said in high growth phases, it may be beneficial for employees to not organize. Once an industry stabilizes, that may change. The German model has certainly been working much better for automotive and other established industries. But even developers who have not been able to get into FAANG positions, US developer salaries are still higher than German ones, as far as I can tell. And for the ones that did get into FAANG, the difference is vast, even for entry level.
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      U.S. developer salaries are also higher than in Japan and over developed salaries, even if those labor markets aren't exactly known for unionization, either.
      - trashtester 3y ago
        Fair enough, though it is possible to get the effects of a union without a union, if worker-employee relationship resembles a feudal lord-serf relationship, where the serf is bound to the lord for life, but the lord is also responsible for covering the basic needs of the serf. Obviously, Japan, China and Korea come from quite different circumstances to Europe and the US in a multitude of ways.
        Apocryphon 3y ago
        That’s also what corporations were like in the U.S. up until the 1980s. Being lifers and having stability was commonplace.
- dns_snek 3y ago
  Have you considered that it might not be European companies "getting held back", but American companies unduly getting ahead by externalizing their negative effects onto society. Think social media and mental health, advertising and mass surveillance, Airbnb's business model vs displaced local population, proliferating gig economy vs exploited gig workers, for example.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - lucumo 3y ago
    Those are very subjective "negative effects". And it is perfectly possible that the American people is perfectly willing to accept those in exchange for the 50% extra household income compared to Germany. I know I would.
    - johannes1234321 3y ago
      Well, in exchange for the lower salary I get less crumbling infrastructure, a mostly working health system, in average better schools without need for extra security, ... and I get better protection from being fired in the spot and better unemployment benefits. All that then leads to cities without no-go areas, where kids can play outside alone. While of course downsides are that I don't have an as big house and no big backyard.
      - trashtester 3y ago
        Don't forget that European media love to focus on the worst aspects of the US. Not every school in the US requires armed guards and infrastructure is pretty good in many places. And in particular, if you have a senior position at a FAANG company, you make enough money to put away significant savings for a rainy day, you get access to healthcare that is typically more modern than what is available in Europe, and you don't need to expose yourself to those inner cities unless you want to. And talking about no-go-zones. They're starting to pop up in Europe now, too, there are plenty of them in Sweden. I wouldn't put all the blame for them on capitalism. Rather, such phenomena seem to be more associated with cases of ethnic or social minorities that feel alienated by society.
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  > whether it appears as regulation, taxation or a number of other factors aimed at improving safety and comfort Also stuff like being bereft of energy resources (compared to American oil/gas/solar), having fucking Russia to the East, the cost of rebuilding after WW2, having lots of languages and cultures (limiting effective market size)...
SideQuark 3y ago
On the other hand, the highest paying professions don't have unions, even outside tech.
- trashtester 3y ago
  MD's have unions where I live. They're probably the highest paying profession in the country.
  - SideQuark 3y ago
    About 7% of doctors are in local unions, and that's a recent trend. They rose to high pay without unions. https://www.axios.com/2022/11/07/more-physicians-join-unions https://www.axios.com/2022/11/07/more-physicians-join-unions
- somewhereoutth 3y ago
  They have professional associations - the most successful unions ever, not least because they pretend not to be unions. See the medical profession as a good example.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    Doctors, lawyers, psychiatrists, accountants...
- maxehmookau 3y ago
  The British Medical Association would like a word. They are a union, despite the name. UK junior doctors and consultants are currently on strike!
  - SideQuark 3y ago
    US doctors avg $316k/ year. UK doctors avg 138k/yr. Thanks for more evidence of how unions "improve" outcomes. https://www.physiciansweekly.com/how-do-us-physician-salaries-compare-with-those-abroad/ https://www.physiciansweekly.com/how-do-us-physician-salarie...

wewxjfq 3y ago

I never heard of an IT union in Germany.

johannes1234321 3y ago
Verdi and IG Metall represent developers. (IGM a bit more traditional, when IBM built machines here; verdi tries to take over as software development is a service of some kind)

Snild 3y ago

> during layoffs, unions may force the company to lay off people based on seniority instead of competency. Interesting. That's the default by law here in Sweden, but can be negotiated with the union -- usually in exchange for better severance compensation.

trashtester 3y ago
I actually had Sweden in mind when writing it.
- Snild 3y ago
  Maybe I was unclear (or I'm not getting your point): forcing the company to go only by seniority is what happens without the union.

ponector 3y ago

Low salaries in tech in EU is not related to unions. Most software jobs are outside of unions. There amount of money in the EU industry is lower and people are ok to low salaries. It is an open market: people are getting paid bare minimum. Covid and remote work shift changed a bit, though. Salaries in the EU tech grown dramatically.

ParetoOptimal 3y ago

Unions limit the innovation the worker wouldn't have gotten proper credit for anyway...meh... Sounds like a good trade for fair working conditions.