4 ms·

You add unions in tech, and then wonder why dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low.

baq 3y ago
Unions are for employees what HR is for companies and I don't see companies doing everything that's legal and some things which are blatantly illegal to prevent themselves from having HR departments
oblio 3y ago
There are basically no unions in tech in Europe. The countries where tech workers are dominated by tech unions can be counted on one hand, and they're probably the Nordic ones. Germany doesn't really have tech unions and for sure they don't dominate the tech scene. France, neither, Eastern Europe (all of them), don't, Southern Europe, not that I know of. Salaries are still low.
yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
> dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low I don't think they are. I think salaries in the US are astronomical, and it boggles the mind how in California a 22 year old React nerd can command a salary five times higher than, say, a teacher. It's all a matter of perspective. From my perspective, if you can sit on your sofa, build a website, and pull in €80k, you're doing just fine.
- caskstrength 3y ago
  > It's all a matter of perspective. From my perspective, if you can sit on your sofa, build a website, and pull in €80k, you're doing just fine. Where do you put the sofa? For locals who inherited and apartment somewhere in Stockholm or Berlin, or have been living in rent-controlled apartment for 20 years, sure, 50k after-tax is fine-ish. What about expats who didn't inherit a 500k Euro apartment from their late grandma?
  - yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
    You can comfortably rent an apartment in most of Europe at market rates on an €80k salary.
    - caskstrength 3y ago
      Define "comfortably". In EU cities with developed IT job markets (Munich, Stockholm, Paris, etc.) you will be spending half of more of your after tax salary just on rent. And you won't be able to afford to live there anymore after you retire.
      - yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
        Warsaw is a counterpoint to that, for example. It has a developed IT job market, and as a senior software developer you'd likely be spending ~20% of your salary on rent. Europe is more than just the few most expensive cities.
        caskstrength 3y ago
        Oh, I'm from eastern Europe myself and of course you can have quite comfortable life there for 80k gross. The counterpoint to that is that 80k is not nearly close to average salary of a person "developing web sites from their sofa" in that region.
        yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
        That's my understanding of the market (from experience), and it appears to be supported here: https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/levels/senior/locations/warsaw-metropolitan-area https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/levels/senior/loc...
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
collyw 3y ago
Nah, Spain has crap salaries, and I have never heard of unions here.
badgersnake 3y ago
Unions are pretty rare in tech in the UK also. I don’t think that’s the reason.
- maxehmookau 3y ago
  That's not true I'm afraid. UTAW and CWU specifically are unions for tech workers in the UK. At big companies especially, like BT, a sizable proportion of the workforce is unionised.
dukeyukey 3y ago
> why dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low American dev salaries are the exception. It's the rest of the world where they're not outstanding.
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  I think they were the exception, the lay offs are likely execs realizing they can get the same or better by hiring someone remotely in a developing country to do the work. Not saying this is a better outcome for anyone specifically, but surely it's compelling?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

baq 3y ago

Unions are for employees what HR is for companies and I don't see companies doing everything that's legal and some things which are blatantly illegal to prevent themselves from having HR departments

oblio 3y ago

There are basically no unions in tech in Europe. The countries where tech workers are dominated by tech unions can be counted on one hand, and they're probably the Nordic ones. Germany doesn't really have tech unions and for sure they don't dominate the tech scene. France, neither, Eastern Europe (all of them), don't, Southern Europe, not that I know of. Salaries are still low.

yakshaving_jgt 3y ago

> dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low I don't think they are. I think salaries in the US are astronomical, and it boggles the mind how in California a 22 year old React nerd can command a salary five times higher than, say, a teacher. It's all a matter of perspective. From my perspective, if you can sit on your sofa, build a website, and pull in €80k, you're doing just fine.

caskstrength 3y ago
> It's all a matter of perspective. From my perspective, if you can sit on your sofa, build a website, and pull in €80k, you're doing just fine. Where do you put the sofa? For locals who inherited and apartment somewhere in Stockholm or Berlin, or have been living in rent-controlled apartment for 20 years, sure, 50k after-tax is fine-ish. What about expats who didn't inherit a 500k Euro apartment from their late grandma?
- yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
  You can comfortably rent an apartment in most of Europe at market rates on an €80k salary.
  - caskstrength 3y ago
    Define "comfortably". In EU cities with developed IT job markets (Munich, Stockholm, Paris, etc.) you will be spending half of more of your after tax salary just on rent. And you won't be able to afford to live there anymore after you retire.
    - yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
      Warsaw is a counterpoint to that, for example. It has a developed IT job market, and as a senior software developer you'd likely be spending ~20% of your salary on rent. Europe is more than just the few most expensive cities.
      - caskstrength 3y ago
        Oh, I'm from eastern Europe myself and of course you can have quite comfortable life there for 80k gross. The counterpoint to that is that 80k is not nearly close to average salary of a person "developing web sites from their sofa" in that region.
        yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
        That's my understanding of the market (from experience), and it appears to be supported here: https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/levels/senior/locations/warsaw-metropolitan-area https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/levels/senior/loc...
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]

collyw 3y ago

Nah, Spain has crap salaries, and I have never heard of unions here.

badgersnake 3y ago

Unions are pretty rare in tech in the UK also. I don’t think that’s the reason.

maxehmookau 3y ago
That's not true I'm afraid. UTAW and CWU specifically are unions for tech workers in the UK. At big companies especially, like BT, a sizable proportion of the workforce is unionised.

dukeyukey 3y ago

> why dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low American dev salaries are the exception. It's the rest of the world where they're not outstanding.

ChatGTP 3y ago
I think they were the exception, the lay offs are likely execs realizing they can get the same or better by hiring someone remotely in a developing country to do the work. Not saying this is a better outcome for anyone specifically, but surely it's compelling?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]