4 ms·

And not just women either. It's ridiculous to assume that 100% of the best/qualified programmers would want to work at a place like that.

sliverstorm 14y ago
Be realistic, there isn't really any culture that 100% of the best/qualified programmers would want to work in.
- ghurlman 14y ago
  Nor did I want to try and produce some sort of WAG percentage of programmers that would/wouldn't want to.
- pjscott 14y ago
  But the thing is, a company don't need 100% of the best programmers; in the extreme case of a small startup, you just need a handful of them to get off the ground. If you can make an environment that a few people love, even if most people wouldn't like it, that could be a competitive advantage in hiring. Companies like the ones that the article criticizes may actually be doing themselves a favor, even as they alienate people who find that kind of environment off-putting. Huh. When I started writing this comment, I did not expect to come to that conclusion.
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    OKCupid came to exactly the same conclusion in regards to dating; strongly appealing to some people is much better than generally appealing to a lot of people. (For anyone not familiar with them, they are a dating website that periodically mines their database and discusses observed trends in their blog)
MBlume 14y ago
Incidentally, this is how we fix it. If everyone just refuses to work with these assholes, and says so loudly, they'll... well, I'd like to say they'll pack up and leave the valley, but more likely they'll wind up concentrated in their own bro-heavy companies, which still seems like a net win for the rest of us.
- srconstantin 14y ago
  Agreed. Until I see evidence that "bro companies" are more successful than normal ones, I have no qualms about shunning them.
  - thwest 14y ago
    You would be happy with a definition of success that allows for the sidelining of an entire gender?
    - scott_s 14y ago
      I think his point was that if we shun them, and they wither and die, then their shunning of a gender ceases to be an issue.
      - srconstantin 14y ago
        BTW, I'm a she, and yes, that was my point.
        thwest 14y ago
        My point is that we don't need to crouch this argument in conditionals. I have no qualms shunning ugly behaviors no matter how "successful" they are.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
- rmc 14y ago
  Yes that can be an effective way to change the world for the better, however we should still have state regulation and laws. We should not leave this entirely up to the labour market.
jmduke 14y ago
The same can be said of the opposite end of the geek cultural spectrum, though -- the stereotypical Mountain Dew & video games contingent. I interviewed a startup where one of the co-founders openly mocked me for wearing a tie; when he asked what my interests were (sports and music, amongst other things), I got criticized for not liking "Starcraft and normal programmer stuff." The issue isn't one specific subset of tech industry culture; it's a result of the startup scene shifting HR roles to technical people who often don't have the soft skills necessary to deal with such tasks effectively.
- ghurlman 14y ago
  True indeed; othering is othering, be it over-bro-ing or ignorant defense of "nerd culture".
  - burgerbrain 14y ago
    In fact, I see "bro-ing" to be a defence against "nerd culture". I assert the only reason it has become popular is because of that other end of the spectrum.
- kelnos 14y ago
  it's a result of the startup scene shifting HR roles to technical people who often don't have the soft skills necessary to deal with such tasks effectively. On the other hand, at least you found out up-front that this particular company probably wouldn't be a good fit for you.
enjo 14y ago
I wouldn't. That's not just white-knighting either. You can't have a culture like that and be seriously committed to making amazing products. That's a culture that chases the outwardly flashy, not the inwardly brilliant. I only work on products that espouse the latter.

sliverstorm 14y ago

Be realistic, there isn't really any culture that 100% of the best/qualified programmers would want to work in.

ghurlman 14y ago
Nor did I want to try and produce some sort of WAG percentage of programmers that would/wouldn't want to.
pjscott 14y ago
But the thing is, a company don't need 100% of the best programmers; in the extreme case of a small startup, you just need a handful of them to get off the ground. If you can make an environment that a few people love, even if most people wouldn't like it, that could be a competitive advantage in hiring. Companies like the ones that the article criticizes may actually be doing themselves a favor, even as they alienate people who find that kind of environment off-putting. Huh. When I started writing this comment, I did not expect to come to that conclusion.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  OKCupid came to exactly the same conclusion in regards to dating; strongly appealing to some people is much better than generally appealing to a lot of people. (For anyone not familiar with them, they are a dating website that periodically mines their database and discusses observed trends in their blog)

MBlume 14y ago

Incidentally, this is how we fix it. If everyone just refuses to work with these assholes, and says so loudly, they'll... well, I'd like to say they'll pack up and leave the valley, but more likely they'll wind up concentrated in their own bro-heavy companies, which still seems like a net win for the rest of us.

srconstantin 14y ago
Agreed. Until I see evidence that "bro companies" are more successful than normal ones, I have no qualms about shunning them.
- thwest 14y ago
  You would be happy with a definition of success that allows for the sidelining of an entire gender?
  - scott_s 14y ago
    I think his point was that if we shun them, and they wither and die, then their shunning of a gender ceases to be an issue.
    - srconstantin 14y ago
      BTW, I'm a she, and yes, that was my point.
      - thwest 14y ago
        My point is that we don't need to crouch this argument in conditionals. I have no qualms shunning ugly behaviors no matter how "successful" they are.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
rmc 14y ago
Yes that can be an effective way to change the world for the better, however we should still have state regulation and laws. We should not leave this entirely up to the labour market.

jmduke 14y ago

The same can be said of the opposite end of the geek cultural spectrum, though -- the stereotypical Mountain Dew & video games contingent. I interviewed a startup where one of the co-founders openly mocked me for wearing a tie; when he asked what my interests were (sports and music, amongst other things), I got criticized for not liking "Starcraft and normal programmer stuff." The issue isn't one specific subset of tech industry culture; it's a result of the startup scene shifting HR roles to technical people who often don't have the soft skills necessary to deal with such tasks effectively.

ghurlman 14y ago
True indeed; othering is othering, be it over-bro-ing or ignorant defense of "nerd culture".
- burgerbrain 14y ago
  In fact, I see "bro-ing" to be a defence against "nerd culture". I assert the only reason it has become popular is because of that other end of the spectrum.
kelnos 14y ago
it's a result of the startup scene shifting HR roles to technical people who often don't have the soft skills necessary to deal with such tasks effectively. On the other hand, at least you found out up-front that this particular company probably wouldn't be a good fit for you.

enjo 14y ago

I wouldn't. That's not just white-knighting either. You can't have a culture like that and be seriously committed to making amazing products. That's a culture that chases the outwardly flashy, not the inwardly brilliant. I only work on products that espouse the latter.