6 ms·

Decentralised exchanges provide a solution, but if a country tries to stifle bitcoin like this, then the bitcoiners can just leave and live somewhere else, taki

by npoc 3y ago

Decentralised exchanges provide a solution, but if a country tries to stifle bitcoin like this, then the bitcoiners can just leave and live somewhere else, taking their wealth with them as 12 words in their head. History shows that societies with the hardest money win.

amanaplanacanal 3y ago
> History shows that societies with the hardest money win. I think I’d like that to be true, but I don’t see much evidence of it. Do you have some examples?
- npoc 3y ago
  The simple fact that there's no societies left using shells, beads, Rai stones, etc. Only the hardest money survived - gold. However although gold is hard, it fair to say that it was beaten somewhat by soft fiat money, simply due to the overwhelmingly better other monetary qualities of fiat (e.g. portability and divisibility) especially in the digital age. Bitcoin is a hard money that takes the best monetary qualities of both fiat and gold, improves them, and combines them into a single asset with which neither fiat or gold (or shells or beads for that matter) can compete. It would have been more accurate for me to have said "societies with the _best_ money win"
  - qwytw 3y ago
    > Bitcoin is a hard money that takes the best monetary qualities of both fiat and gold Not it doesen't. Also bitcoin is not money (why do people keep claiming this?), it's a speculative asset.
    - npoc 3y ago
      > Not it doesen't. Okay
      - qwytw 3y ago
        Why would you expect anyone to waste time making any substantive arguments against silly claims like "Bitcoin is money"..
        mlrtime 3y ago
        "Money is any item or verifiable record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts, such as taxes, in a particular country or socio-economic context.[1][2][3] The primary functions which distinguish money are: medium of exchange, a unit of account, a store of value and sometimes, a standard of deferred payment." I have purchased items and payed off loans using BTC. So have millions of other people. You calling it not money doesn't make it so. Sorry.
        amanaplanacanal 3y ago
        It’s certainly not “generally accepted”. There are very few places that accept it. I don’t know any retailer that would accept it where I live, though there must be at least a few. I can’t use it for repayment of debts or taxes.
        qwytw 3y ago
        > I have purchased items and payed off loans using BTC. So have millions of other people. You calling it not money doesn't make it so. Sorry. I can exchange grain or aluminum for other goods and services and pay back my debts in them if the other party agrees. Does that those commodities money? If you think so and then yeah you're right about bitcoin too. Otherwise, it's not. Sorry.
    - jcpham2 3y ago
      A guy scammed some people a long time ago and tried this “Bitcoin isn’t money” argument and it didn’t work[1]. [1] SEC vs. Shavers followed by FBI vs. Shavers DOJ victim emails are neat! This whole ETF thing has been a long time coming in terms of precedent at the legal level. Court cases are how things happen in America unfortunately.
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    What does it means that a society "wins"? Gold isn't money - it's a commodity. It isn't even a great store of value over that last thousand years or so.
    - npoc 3y ago
      > What does it means that a society "wins"? It grows stronger/more efficient compared to others. > Gold isn't money - it's a commodity. It isn't even a great store of value over that last thousand years or so. I don't want to argue semantics, but yes gold certainly isn't great at storing value - its supply doubles every 40 years and over the last 100+ years has been slowly demonetised as economic value moved into fiat.
      - RandomLensman 3y ago
        "Stronger" is tricky to measure. "Efficient" is bit better to measure. The introduction of standardized (and "policed") coins certainly opened up commerce a few thousand years back, but in the end it did not stop the Romans from taking over the Greek world, for example. There is a lot more to societies than money. Can you do huge damage to societies from hyperinflation - for sure, but outside of catastrophic failures of money, not so sure there is a strong link.
        npoc 3y ago
        > The introduction of standardized (and "policed") coins certainly opened up commerce a few thousand years back, but in the end it did not stop the Romans from taking over the Greek world, for example. Yes I'm assuming all else equal or when studied over a long period of time. Nowadays we can use our knowledge and intelligence to simply start using better money in advance. > Can you do huge damage to societies from hyperinflation - for sure, but outside of catastrophic failures of money, not so sure there is a strong link. I don't think you appreciate the damage that has already been caused by fiat. Look at USA, the UK and compare them to just 50 years ago. We think we are rich but it's just an illusion caused by devalued money. An average man used to be able to own a home, and support a wife and kids on his salary. Those days are long gone. The bankers are unjustly getting more and more powerful (far more powerful than the governments) while the people are becoming weaker and weaker.
qwytw 3y ago
> just leave and live somewhere else, taking their wealth with Wealth can't really use to purchase anything with is not real wealth. If you can't convert bitcoin to $/€ it becomes effectively worthless > History shows that societies with the hardest money win. Objectively not true. Look at what happened with Britain after 1918 when tried doing everything they could to stick with "hard" money and avoid devaluation/dropping the gold standard.
- fidelramos 3y ago
  > Wealth can't really use to purchase anything with is not real wealth. If you can't convert bitcoin to $/€ it becomes effectively worthless I agree, that is why Bitcoin was supposed to be electronic cash, you were supposed to be able to pay for everything with it. Bitcoin (BTC) doesn't scale today to this purpose, but you can still use it to pay directly for some products and services as long as the other party will accept it. For those wanting Fiat money you could exchange BTC to stablecoins, even in a decentralized way like with ThorChain [0]. What's missing is some seamless bridge between stablecoins and Fiat payment methods and bank accounts. Then you could pay for anything. However I would argue that Bitcoin was meant to become the payment method, as Satoshi Nakamoto described in the whitepaper [1]. [0] https://thorchain.com/ https://thorchain.com/ [1] https://www.bitcoin.com/satoshi-archive/whitepaper/ https://www.bitcoin.com/satoshi-archive/whitepaper/
  - qwytw 3y ago
    > pay directly for some products and services as long as the other party will accept it. You can but generally you don't want to. Besides the technical issues it's a very volatile asset which means that you don't want to hold it for any extended period of time (IF you're only using it to pay for stuff).
    - JustinGoldberg9 3y ago
      I pay for things with dollars. I keep some cash available at all times. I had to buy a car last year, so I sold some Bitcoin, paid tax on its capital gain, and so I effectively paid less for it, as I held Bitcoin from roughly 20k to 30k. There will always be more volatility to the upside

by npoc 3y ago

amanaplanacanal 3y ago

> History shows that societies with the hardest money win. I think I’d like that to be true, but I don’t see much evidence of it. Do you have some examples?

npoc 3y ago
The simple fact that there's no societies left using shells, beads, Rai stones, etc. Only the hardest money survived - gold. However although gold is hard, it fair to say that it was beaten somewhat by soft fiat money, simply due to the overwhelmingly better other monetary qualities of fiat (e.g. portability and divisibility) especially in the digital age. Bitcoin is a hard money that takes the best monetary qualities of both fiat and gold, improves them, and combines them into a single asset with which neither fiat or gold (or shells or beads for that matter) can compete. It would have been more accurate for me to have said "societies with the _best_ money win"
- qwytw 3y ago
  > Bitcoin is a hard money that takes the best monetary qualities of both fiat and gold Not it doesen't. Also bitcoin is not money (why do people keep claiming this?), it's a speculative asset.
  - npoc 3y ago
    > Not it doesen't. Okay
    - qwytw 3y ago
      Why would you expect anyone to waste time making any substantive arguments against silly claims like "Bitcoin is money"..
      - mlrtime 3y ago
        "Money is any item or verifiable record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts, such as taxes, in a particular country or socio-economic context.[1][2][3] The primary functions which distinguish money are: medium of exchange, a unit of account, a store of value and sometimes, a standard of deferred payment." I have purchased items and payed off loans using BTC. So have millions of other people. You calling it not money doesn't make it so. Sorry.
        amanaplanacanal 3y ago
        It’s certainly not “generally accepted”. There are very few places that accept it. I don’t know any retailer that would accept it where I live, though there must be at least a few. I can’t use it for repayment of debts or taxes.
        qwytw 3y ago
        > I have purchased items and payed off loans using BTC. So have millions of other people. You calling it not money doesn't make it so. Sorry. I can exchange grain or aluminum for other goods and services and pay back my debts in them if the other party agrees. Does that those commodities money? If you think so and then yeah you're right about bitcoin too. Otherwise, it's not. Sorry.
  - jcpham2 3y ago
    A guy scammed some people a long time ago and tried this “Bitcoin isn’t money” argument and it didn’t work[1]. [1] SEC vs. Shavers followed by FBI vs. Shavers DOJ victim emails are neat! This whole ETF thing has been a long time coming in terms of precedent at the legal level. Court cases are how things happen in America unfortunately.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  What does it means that a society "wins"? Gold isn't money - it's a commodity. It isn't even a great store of value over that last thousand years or so.
  - npoc 3y ago
    > What does it means that a society "wins"? It grows stronger/more efficient compared to others. > Gold isn't money - it's a commodity. It isn't even a great store of value over that last thousand years or so. I don't want to argue semantics, but yes gold certainly isn't great at storing value - its supply doubles every 40 years and over the last 100+ years has been slowly demonetised as economic value moved into fiat.
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      "Stronger" is tricky to measure. "Efficient" is bit better to measure. The introduction of standardized (and "policed") coins certainly opened up commerce a few thousand years back, but in the end it did not stop the Romans from taking over the Greek world, for example. There is a lot more to societies than money. Can you do huge damage to societies from hyperinflation - for sure, but outside of catastrophic failures of money, not so sure there is a strong link.
      - npoc 3y ago
        > The introduction of standardized (and "policed") coins certainly opened up commerce a few thousand years back, but in the end it did not stop the Romans from taking over the Greek world, for example. Yes I'm assuming all else equal or when studied over a long period of time. Nowadays we can use our knowledge and intelligence to simply start using better money in advance. > Can you do huge damage to societies from hyperinflation - for sure, but outside of catastrophic failures of money, not so sure there is a strong link. I don't think you appreciate the damage that has already been caused by fiat. Look at USA, the UK and compare them to just 50 years ago. We think we are rich but it's just an illusion caused by devalued money. An average man used to be able to own a home, and support a wife and kids on his salary. Those days are long gone. The bankers are unjustly getting more and more powerful (far more powerful than the governments) while the people are becoming weaker and weaker.

qwytw 3y ago

> just leave and live somewhere else, taking their wealth with Wealth can't really use to purchase anything with is not real wealth. If you can't convert bitcoin to $/€ it becomes effectively worthless > History shows that societies with the hardest money win. Objectively not true. Look at what happened with Britain after 1918 when tried doing everything they could to stick with "hard" money and avoid devaluation/dropping the gold standard.

fidelramos 3y ago
> Wealth can't really use to purchase anything with is not real wealth. If you can't convert bitcoin to $/€ it becomes effectively worthless I agree, that is why Bitcoin was supposed to be electronic cash, you were supposed to be able to pay for everything with it. Bitcoin (BTC) doesn't scale today to this purpose, but you can still use it to pay directly for some products and services as long as the other party will accept it. For those wanting Fiat money you could exchange BTC to stablecoins, even in a decentralized way like with ThorChain [0]. What's missing is some seamless bridge between stablecoins and Fiat payment methods and bank accounts. Then you could pay for anything. However I would argue that Bitcoin was meant to become the payment method, as Satoshi Nakamoto described in the whitepaper [1]. [0] https://thorchain.com/ https://thorchain.com/ [1] https://www.bitcoin.com/satoshi-archive/whitepaper/ https://www.bitcoin.com/satoshi-archive/whitepaper/
- qwytw 3y ago
  > pay directly for some products and services as long as the other party will accept it. You can but generally you don't want to. Besides the technical issues it's a very volatile asset which means that you don't want to hold it for any extended period of time (IF you're only using it to pay for stuff).
  - JustinGoldberg9 3y ago
    I pay for things with dollars. I keep some cash available at all times. I had to buy a car last year, so I sold some Bitcoin, paid tax on its capital gain, and so I effectively paid less for it, as I held Bitcoin from roughly 20k to 30k. There will always be more volatility to the upside