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You are trying to build a narrative that it's men stopping women from participating in software development. I find that problematic and harmful. Where is your

by 127 15y ago

You are trying to build a narrative that it's men stopping women from participating in software development. I find that problematic and harmful. Where is your proof, other than pure conjecture? My own conjecture is that women don't want to do software development because it's boring and difficult. I'm sure they could if they wanted to, they just do not. With a few notable exceptions to the rule.

anichan 15y ago
It might not be the primary reason but it certainly doesn't help. Back in high school, I was really excited to join the robotics team and I really had a passion for it but I only stayed in it for a year before quitting. I was the only girl on the team and the attitude people took with me was infuriating. It felt like such a boy's club. Sure, you can just pass it off as "boys will be boys", high school boys are stupid and immature. But even the adult mentors were so exclusionary. I had to fight tooth and nail to be involved in the programming and building aspect of the competition even though just wanted to stick me to making their website look pretty. It took me a couple of years to get that bad taste out of my mouth. I initially didn't even go into college for a STEM degree before I worked myself up to take Computer Engineering. When you have experiences like that in high school and you hear stories about sexism in the workforce, it's intimidating to enter a field even if you do enjoy it. I'm glad I made the choice I did but the vibe other women get from degrees like CS isn't conducive to promoting a better gender balance.
- 127 15y ago
  Thanks, it is interesting to hear from personal experience what it is like.
- JanezStupar 15y ago
  Not that this applies to you, but I have seen a female programmer (co worker) invoke the chauvinist card, when in fact she was no good as programmer. She wanted to be involved, she wanted to do cool stuff. But she didn't have the basics dialed at all and didn't have the work ethic to pick it up at an accelerated pace. As far as I have seen the guys in hard fields (as AI and Robotics) are pretty selective bunch and will not allow someone with average skills amongst them. You have to be flat out and you have to impress them with your skills. Be a gal or a guy, but if you haven't done you're homework beforehand then you're not welcome in their club. On the other hand, competent and driven engineers have in my opinion always been accepted as an equal. But I have only met a handful of women willing to put in the necessary work.
  - slantyyz 15y ago
    > I have seen a female programmer (co worker) invoke the chauvinist card Incompetent people will invoke whatever card is convenient for them, whether it's sexism, racism, ageism, what have you. > But I have only met a handful of women willing to put in the necessary work. If I were to go by my experience of people in tech (which includes non-startup environments), only a small portion of people are willing to put in the necessary work - male or female. There's a higher concentration of people of people willing to pay their dues in the smaller companies like startups, but I'm not convinced that percentage-wise, the "handful of women" you talk of is any worse than the percentage of men in tech on the whole, which includes the non-startup world. Remember, the 501s outnumber the "hardcore" people by a huge margin, and a vast majority of the 501s are men.
    - JanezStupar 15y ago
      > Incompetent people will invoke whatever card is convenient for them, whether it's sexism, racism, ageism, what have you. Of course they will, but then the pathologic PC people will attack anyone calling them out on it. With this modern attitude that no one should ever get hurt, we are giving a carte blanche to the rotten apples. Just keep that in mind. > There's a higher concentration of people of people willing to pay their dues in the smaller companies like startups, but I'm not convinced that percentage-wise, the "handful of women" you talk of is any worse than the percentage of men in tech on the whole, which includes the non-startup world. The handful of women I talk about were absolutely brilliant and could and did go in stride with the best of us guys. And thus they were accepted as a part of the team. I have never thought of a coworker "she is incompetent because she is a woman" but I have thought of a coworker "she is incompetent and expects to get away with it because she is a woman". Many women often try to play their sex to their advantage when in a bad position. e.g.: I have never heard of a woman demand to be given a ticket by a policeman, when in fact such would be the law. Tech people just have really low tolerance for bullshit and don't care as much about etiquette. That is all I'm trying to say. Being politically correct for the sake of it won't do much for quality of engineering being done.
      - deleted 15y ago
- slantyyz 15y ago
  As a guy in the tech industry, I myself can't stand working in a "sausage factory". Homogeneity makes people complacent. The guard comes down, and the 'behaviour filter' that people would otherwise have in a more heterogenous environment disappears. This type of thing bugs me because I worry that it desensitizes me and makes me careless when I visit clients, or change workplaces.
rada 15y ago
"Women don't want to do software development because it's boring and difficult". Except it's a well known fact that until the 80's, roughly half of US programmers were women, and all around the world, the percentages of women in computing are growing, not shrinking. And please don't say that people who stay away from technical careers do so because it's "difficult". You are one conjecture away from suggesting that white and asian males are intellectually superior to everyone else.
- 127 15y ago
  I did not say that software development was not difficult for Asians and whites. Just that it is difficult (and subjectively boring). Period. What I am saying, is that getting a good paying, stable job is not as important for women as it is for men, so they don't have to collectively sacrifice as much. Which is purely my opinion.
  - rada 15y ago
    Getting a good job is not as important for women as it is for men? Are you serious? And why is that, in your opinion? Two (hypothetically related, depending on your answer) mini questions: Do you think it's equally as unimportant for ugly women? What about lesbians?
    - 127 15y ago
      >And why is that, in your opinion? The rules of sexual marketplace. >Do you think it's equally as unimportant for ugly women? What about lesbians? Both are a small minority. Ugly women still can't improve their attractiveness by having a job nearly as much as men can.
      - rada 15y ago
        You know, I tried to hint at where your logic breaks down and be a little funny while at it, but you just don't get it. Let me be more direct. 1. It is most definitely not a small minority that would be excluded from high-paying jobs if these jobs are to go only to men, and only so they could use money to get women. You would have to exclude gay men, married men, men with girlfriends, and many more groups that when taken together, would comprise an overwhelming majority. 2. I really hope you take this next point the right way. If you genuinely believe that the formula of the sexual marketplace is money≈sex, you really need some introspection and perhaps a radically different environment - friends, reading material, TV shows, parents... whatever sources you are getting that information from. I am not trying to be glib. You are being misled, and you are the only person who will pay for it in the long term.
Kadin 15y ago
> My own conjecture is that women don't want to do software development because it's boring and difficult. Why would women find this more of a problem then men do? You're just replacing one unproven assertion with another, the latter that women are more sensitive to "boring and difficult" jobs than men are. I can't think of any compelling reason or even any evidence for that, given the number of "boring and difficult" jobs done by women. Also, given the average salary and demand for developers in the current job market relative to other fields, women -- as a group -- would have to have a rather strong aversion to software development to be avoiding it purely because it's boring and difficult. I don't see any reason to take that particular conjecture seriously.
- 127 15y ago
  >Why would women find this more of a problem then men do? I did not say this. What I said that women have more of a choice not to have a career and still succeed in raising a family.
  - slantyyz 15y ago
    > What I said that women have more of a choice not to have a career and still succeed in raising a family. Yeah, not so sure about that statement either, given economic times.
  - icebraining 15y ago
    The census show that stay-at-home women have in general lower education and family income, and are more likely to be Hispanic or foreign-born. The results indicate it's less of a choice and more of a lack of employment opportunities.
    - 127 15y ago
      Also my personal research shows that women value steady employment in long time partners much more than men do.

by 127 15y ago

anichan 15y ago

It might not be the primary reason but it certainly doesn't help. Back in high school, I was really excited to join the robotics team and I really had a passion for it but I only stayed in it for a year before quitting. I was the only girl on the team and the attitude people took with me was infuriating. It felt like such a boy's club. Sure, you can just pass it off as "boys will be boys", high school boys are stupid and immature. But even the adult mentors were so exclusionary. I had to fight tooth and nail to be involved in the programming and building aspect of the competition even though just wanted to stick me to making their website look pretty. It took me a couple of years to get that bad taste out of my mouth. I initially didn't even go into college for a STEM degree before I worked myself up to take Computer Engineering. When you have experiences like that in high school and you hear stories about sexism in the workforce, it's intimidating to enter a field even if you do enjoy it. I'm glad I made the choice I did but the vibe other women get from degrees like CS isn't conducive to promoting a better gender balance.

127 15y ago
Thanks, it is interesting to hear from personal experience what it is like.
JanezStupar 15y ago
Not that this applies to you, but I have seen a female programmer (co worker) invoke the chauvinist card, when in fact she was no good as programmer. She wanted to be involved, she wanted to do cool stuff. But she didn't have the basics dialed at all and didn't have the work ethic to pick it up at an accelerated pace. As far as I have seen the guys in hard fields (as AI and Robotics) are pretty selective bunch and will not allow someone with average skills amongst them. You have to be flat out and you have to impress them with your skills. Be a gal or a guy, but if you haven't done you're homework beforehand then you're not welcome in their club. On the other hand, competent and driven engineers have in my opinion always been accepted as an equal. But I have only met a handful of women willing to put in the necessary work.
- slantyyz 15y ago
  > I have seen a female programmer (co worker) invoke the chauvinist card Incompetent people will invoke whatever card is convenient for them, whether it's sexism, racism, ageism, what have you. > But I have only met a handful of women willing to put in the necessary work. If I were to go by my experience of people in tech (which includes non-startup environments), only a small portion of people are willing to put in the necessary work - male or female. There's a higher concentration of people of people willing to pay their dues in the smaller companies like startups, but I'm not convinced that percentage-wise, the "handful of women" you talk of is any worse than the percentage of men in tech on the whole, which includes the non-startup world. Remember, the 501s outnumber the "hardcore" people by a huge margin, and a vast majority of the 501s are men.
  - JanezStupar 15y ago
    > Incompetent people will invoke whatever card is convenient for them, whether it's sexism, racism, ageism, what have you. Of course they will, but then the pathologic PC people will attack anyone calling them out on it. With this modern attitude that no one should ever get hurt, we are giving a carte blanche to the rotten apples. Just keep that in mind. > There's a higher concentration of people of people willing to pay their dues in the smaller companies like startups, but I'm not convinced that percentage-wise, the "handful of women" you talk of is any worse than the percentage of men in tech on the whole, which includes the non-startup world. The handful of women I talk about were absolutely brilliant and could and did go in stride with the best of us guys. And thus they were accepted as a part of the team. I have never thought of a coworker "she is incompetent because she is a woman" but I have thought of a coworker "she is incompetent and expects to get away with it because she is a woman". Many women often try to play their sex to their advantage when in a bad position. e.g.: I have never heard of a woman demand to be given a ticket by a policeman, when in fact such would be the law. Tech people just have really low tolerance for bullshit and don't care as much about etiquette. That is all I'm trying to say. Being politically correct for the sake of it won't do much for quality of engineering being done.
    - deleted 15y ago
slantyyz 15y ago
As a guy in the tech industry, I myself can't stand working in a "sausage factory". Homogeneity makes people complacent. The guard comes down, and the 'behaviour filter' that people would otherwise have in a more heterogenous environment disappears. This type of thing bugs me because I worry that it desensitizes me and makes me careless when I visit clients, or change workplaces.

rada 15y ago

"Women don't want to do software development because it's boring and difficult". Except it's a well known fact that until the 80's, roughly half of US programmers were women, and all around the world, the percentages of women in computing are growing, not shrinking. And please don't say that people who stay away from technical careers do so because it's "difficult". You are one conjecture away from suggesting that white and asian males are intellectually superior to everyone else.

127 15y ago
I did not say that software development was not difficult for Asians and whites. Just that it is difficult (and subjectively boring). Period. What I am saying, is that getting a good paying, stable job is not as important for women as it is for men, so they don't have to collectively sacrifice as much. Which is purely my opinion.
- rada 15y ago
  Getting a good job is not as important for women as it is for men? Are you serious? And why is that, in your opinion? Two (hypothetically related, depending on your answer) mini questions: Do you think it's equally as unimportant for ugly women? What about lesbians?
  - 127 15y ago
    >And why is that, in your opinion? The rules of sexual marketplace. >Do you think it's equally as unimportant for ugly women? What about lesbians? Both are a small minority. Ugly women still can't improve their attractiveness by having a job nearly as much as men can.
    - rada 15y ago
      You know, I tried to hint at where your logic breaks down and be a little funny while at it, but you just don't get it. Let me be more direct. 1. It is most definitely not a small minority that would be excluded from high-paying jobs if these jobs are to go only to men, and only so they could use money to get women. You would have to exclude gay men, married men, men with girlfriends, and many more groups that when taken together, would comprise an overwhelming majority. 2. I really hope you take this next point the right way. If you genuinely believe that the formula of the sexual marketplace is money≈sex, you really need some introspection and perhaps a radically different environment - friends, reading material, TV shows, parents... whatever sources you are getting that information from. I am not trying to be glib. You are being misled, and you are the only person who will pay for it in the long term.

Kadin 15y ago

> My own conjecture is that women don't want to do software development because it's boring and difficult. Why would women find this more of a problem then men do? You're just replacing one unproven assertion with another, the latter that women are more sensitive to "boring and difficult" jobs than men are. I can't think of any compelling reason or even any evidence for that, given the number of "boring and difficult" jobs done by women. Also, given the average salary and demand for developers in the current job market relative to other fields, women -- as a group -- would have to have a rather strong aversion to software development to be avoiding it purely because it's boring and difficult. I don't see any reason to take that particular conjecture seriously.

127 15y ago
>Why would women find this more of a problem then men do? I did not say this. What I said that women have more of a choice not to have a career and still succeed in raising a family.
- slantyyz 15y ago
  > What I said that women have more of a choice not to have a career and still succeed in raising a family. Yeah, not so sure about that statement either, given economic times.
- icebraining 15y ago
  The census show that stay-at-home women have in general lower education and family income, and are more likely to be Hispanic or foreign-born. The results indicate it's less of a choice and more of a lack of employment opportunities.
  - 127 15y ago
    Also my personal research shows that women value steady employment in long time partners much more than men do.