5 ms·

> At the startup-focused Grow Conference in 2011, his presentation included bikini-girl images from his calendar. He prefaced the slides with a laughing, "I'm s

by ceol 15y ago

> At the startup-focused Grow Conference in 2011, his presentation included bikini-girl images from his calendar. He prefaced the slides with a laughing, "I'm sorry for being sexist. I apologize in advance," I read this a lot on reddit. Someone will preface their comment with "I'm going to hell for this" or "Apologies in advance" as if that's supposed to excuse it. I get the feeling it's because these people don't see themselves as ____ist, so when they do something ____ist it's "just a joke" or "I'm not serious!" I think for us to get rid of this culture, we need to make these people realize they're actually sexist. They're not a nice guy making a sexist joke; they're a sexist guy making a sexist joke, and this is how everyone sees them.

skore 15y ago
I agree with you to a degree, but you simply can't put it as strong as you did. It is absolutely possible to make a joke that is understood as sexist without being one yourself. That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by. Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend others. Whether or not that person really does appreciate the extent to which their comment can be hurtful and whether or not they really are sexist (to whatever degree) is a different matter altogether. Filtering your output because of others and your true conviction are two different things and you're not doing anybody a favor by forcing a causality here.
- ceol 15y ago
  > That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by. Would you agree there's a difference between a comedian telling a sexist joke and a respected speaker at a tech conference telling a sexist joke? > Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend others. However, they didn't stop from making the comment, so I'd say it's even worse: They know what they said is offensive but don't care. > Filtering your output because of others and your true conviction are two different things and you're not doing anybody a favor by forcing a causality here. I'm not forcing any causality. If you tell sexist jokes, it's not a stretch for people to assume you're sexist. But all too often we don't; we write it off as "just a joke" because the person did a slight nod to their offensiveness. Instead, we should take it the other way and stop excusing this behavior. It does nothing but alienate women.
  - slantyyz 15y ago
    >> It does nothing but alienate women. In addition, there are personal/professional costs too: * It does nothing but create the perception that you're not a professional worth listening to. * It also does nothing to make a non-brogrammer want to hire you (or the company you work for) in the future.
  - skore 15y ago
    > They know what they said is offensive but don't care. I think this might be the crux here: If you simply cannot find humor in such jokes, that's just the way it is and I can spend all day trying to convince you that it is possible - we simply cannot resolve this. But it's not about whether the person telling the joke does or does not care about whether it is offensive. Actually, a lot of comedians tell joke knowing full well and precisely because the jokes are offensive. > Instead, we should take it the other way and stop excusing this behavior. It does nothing but alienate women. I don't think this is a problem that we can "solve" just like there is "solution" to human diseases. The complex moral and emotional minefield that is human interaction is like an immune system: A dirty solution to a truly dirty problem. It often sucks, but there is a reason why it's there: Because it just, sadly, happens to be the best solution to a problem. I fully agree that the "mild" form of sexism that is often laughed away is terrible and a lot of people do a lot of hurt without even noticing a lot of the time. But I don't think there is really a solution other to just being a human and acting appropriately like one.
- aperrien 15y ago
  That's the premise of South Park, and why I accept it. They pick on everyone equally. That is the only "fair" way to express that sort of humor.
  - egillie 15y ago
    Another thing I like about South Park is that they only seem to make fun of things people can help -- they'll make fun of black culture, but not black people.
- Kadin 15y ago
  The way that I have always tried to explain this to other people is that it's not a matter of "being sexist" or "not being sexist" (or racist, or whatever). It's a matter of what you actually do. Whether or not you "are sexist" on some innate level is between you and God, or your psychologist, or whatever. Nobody at work gives a damn, really. What matters are your actions, and in particular the effect they have on others and on the work environment generally. If you do and say sexist things, then there's a problem. Whether you really are or aren't sexist on some sort of deep level is, for the purposes of maintaining office harmony, irrelevant. It's very rare to find anyone who will actually cop to being racist or sexist, and I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt and believe that they probably really aren't. But if someone quacks like a duck and walks like a duck often enough, they're going to get called a duck.
  - skore 15y ago
    I would further say that you'd probably have to distinguish between a person being sexist out of negligence and a 'true' sexist. A lot of "white knighting" falls under the first and can result in people who are absolutely convinced that they are being the exact opposite of sexist, while they can be just as hurtful.

by ceol 15y ago

skore 15y ago

I agree with you to a degree, but you simply can't put it as strong as you did. It is absolutely possible to make a joke that is understood as sexist without being one yourself. That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by. Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend others. Whether or not that person really does appreciate the extent to which their comment can be hurtful and whether or not they really are sexist (to whatever degree) is a different matter altogether. Filtering your output because of others and your true conviction are two different things and you're not doing anybody a favor by forcing a causality here.

ceol 15y ago
> That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by. Would you agree there's a difference between a comedian telling a sexist joke and a respected speaker at a tech conference telling a sexist joke? > Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend others. However, they didn't stop from making the comment, so I'd say it's even worse: They know what they said is offensive but don't care. > Filtering your output because of others and your true conviction are two different things and you're not doing anybody a favor by forcing a causality here. I'm not forcing any causality. If you tell sexist jokes, it's not a stretch for people to assume you're sexist. But all too often we don't; we write it off as "just a joke" because the person did a slight nod to their offensiveness. Instead, we should take it the other way and stop excusing this behavior. It does nothing but alienate women.
- slantyyz 15y ago
  >> It does nothing but alienate women. In addition, there are personal/professional costs too: * It does nothing but create the perception that you're not a professional worth listening to. * It also does nothing to make a non-brogrammer want to hire you (or the company you work for) in the future.
- skore 15y ago
  > They know what they said is offensive but don't care. I think this might be the crux here: If you simply cannot find humor in such jokes, that's just the way it is and I can spend all day trying to convince you that it is possible - we simply cannot resolve this. But it's not about whether the person telling the joke does or does not care about whether it is offensive. Actually, a lot of comedians tell joke knowing full well and precisely because the jokes are offensive. > Instead, we should take it the other way and stop excusing this behavior. It does nothing but alienate women. I don't think this is a problem that we can "solve" just like there is "solution" to human diseases. The complex moral and emotional minefield that is human interaction is like an immune system: A dirty solution to a truly dirty problem. It often sucks, but there is a reason why it's there: Because it just, sadly, happens to be the best solution to a problem. I fully agree that the "mild" form of sexism that is often laughed away is terrible and a lot of people do a lot of hurt without even noticing a lot of the time. But I don't think there is really a solution other to just being a human and acting appropriately like one.
aperrien 15y ago
That's the premise of South Park, and why I accept it. They pick on everyone equally. That is the only "fair" way to express that sort of humor.
- egillie 15y ago
  Another thing I like about South Park is that they only seem to make fun of things people can help -- they'll make fun of black culture, but not black people.
Kadin 15y ago
The way that I have always tried to explain this to other people is that it's not a matter of "being sexist" or "not being sexist" (or racist, or whatever). It's a matter of what you actually do. Whether or not you "are sexist" on some innate level is between you and God, or your psychologist, or whatever. Nobody at work gives a damn, really. What matters are your actions, and in particular the effect they have on others and on the work environment generally. If you do and say sexist things, then there's a problem. Whether you really are or aren't sexist on some sort of deep level is, for the purposes of maintaining office harmony, irrelevant. It's very rare to find anyone who will actually cop to being racist or sexist, and I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt and believe that they probably really aren't. But if someone quacks like a duck and walks like a duck often enough, they're going to get called a duck.
- skore 15y ago
  I would further say that you'd probably have to distinguish between a person being sexist out of negligence and a 'true' sexist. A lot of "white knighting" falls under the first and can result in people who are absolutely convinced that they are being the exact opposite of sexist, while they can be just as hurtful.