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> "Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis" Brain chemistry is relevant to logical analysis. Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry. There are al

> "Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis" Brain chemistry is relevant to logical analysis. Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry. There are also social problems that contribute. But the gender ratio would not be 50-50 even in a completely egalitarian society. Women like my wife [0] are rare, partly because of "brogrammers" chasing them off, but also because a smaller proportion of women are interested in the particular types of analysis that are relevant to programming. [0] http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=Dove http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=Dove

Stwerp 15y ago
Do you mean sex or gender? (Remember, words are assigned gender but cannot have sex.) I'm not going to try to argue the brain chemistry thing^, but the social/culture aspect is a large problem and (as you bring up) can also partially explain why there are few women as well as men choosing to live effeminately in programming or technical jobs. ^Edit for clarity: Because I think its a totally loaded statement and don't want to even start down that path, not because I agree and assume its fact.
pharrington 15y ago
"Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry." Quantify how sex affects the brain in specific ways that effect the likelihood of developing an interesting in programming and being an effective programmer. Until we can do this, essentially saying "physiology affects your organs" is a pretty empty statement.
- Produce 15y ago
  That's like saying that until we can quantify how far Paris is from London, "Paris is far from London" is a pretty empty statement. Pretty sure that people understood that locations can be some distance away from each other before they could quantify exactly how much distance.
  - pharrington 15y ago
    Huh? If someone knows neither where Paris nor London are, then yes, saying "Paris is far from London" indeed isn't useful. Is the distance between them a two hour drive? Do they lie half-way around the world from each other? Except in pathological cases, we barely know how physiology affects large scale behavior, let alone how particular brain functions influence how one's interests develop and how they excel at activities, especially in the midst of the confounding environmental factors such as upbringing, schooling, and culture. We don't know where Paris or London are on the map.
    - Produce 15y ago
      But we do know the net effects of sex on developing an interest in programming, namely that there is a negative correlation between being female and having said interest. The question is what comprises this effect and how much of it is nature as opposed to nurture. Basically, it depends on if you approach it from a hollistic perspective (where the effect of sex is the compound of physical capability and social influences and whatever else) or a narrow perspective (how does the Y chromosome influence analytical capability). In the wide perspective, the answer is clear - there are indeed differences in how males and females process their environment (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9JNbJB0PhGEJ:www.psychonomic.org/pubmed/mc/mc-28-1333.pdf+&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgFSyi1DnQg9j6kxkrUb6lbPKD5fvxs36ZnjD0E-1RN0UBjv02kFAMtTHn-1vhvtQf-6RLiFaDnzG_IN1-DXvluSGS1FeqiA5s1iqioqGi_Xf26V9tV2SUBLH7lcQqR6Q5jpUR_&sig=AHIEtbR147MxK545fxbBoj6r6h0RH94WYg&pli=1 https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9JNbJB0PhGEJ:...). In the narrow perspective, it may never be clear for environment influences genetic expression (http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/environmental-influences-on-gene-expression-536 http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/environmental-influ...). In other words, it's possible that the genetics expressed in a human are themselves socially influenced. Or, for a bigger picture, an individual having a Y chromosome is treated differently by their environment which in turn results in a different genetic expression and, by extension, different preferences and capabilities. Or to put it yet another way, nature influences nuture which, in turn, influences nature. It's a feedback loop. Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_psychology#Intelligence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_psychology#Intelligence To summarise the above link, there is greater variation in adult men's intelligence and they are over-represented at the tail end as well as having a higher average intelligence. So we do indeed know where both Paris and London are at this point, we just don't know enough about geology to guess how they got there.
- Dove 15y ago
  Quantify how sex affects the brain in specific ways that effect the likelihood of developing an interesting in programming and being an effective programmer. I'm not sure I can be quite that specific, but there are some very well-established differences in the way men and women think, and the way the respond to stress. See here: http://bible.org/seriespage/biological-basis-gender-specific-behavior http://bible.org/seriespage/biological-basis-gender-specific... [1] . . . particularly sections V and VII. I wouldn't go so far as to say we know how gender affects brain chemistry specifically as it refers to programming, only that we know it does affect how we think, process information, and handle stress. And those things seem like they would be relevant. Don't they? That is to say, I wouldn't say I know ALL of the differences between us are innate, only that I find it plausible that a lot of them are. And that I'm hesitant to treat statistically underrepresented women as necessarily a problem. [1] You'll have to excuse the bible.org reference; the christian academic community seems to be about the only one in which one can have a serious conversation about innate differences between the genders without getting immediately taken out and shot. You have my assurance that the discussion in the article is interesting and scientific, and comes with copious footnotes to mainstream sources.
  - Stwerp 15y ago
    > the christian academic community seems to be about the only one in which one can have a serious conversation about innate differences between the genders without getting immediately taken out and shot. (Sorry, I don't mean to harp on this too much, but after hanging out around a sociologist with a pet peeve, it has sadly rubbed off on me.) This may be because in the academic community "gender" has an entirely different meaning that "sex." Sex (and the sex differences) relate to biological differences, male and female. Gender (and gender differences) relate to society, culture, and how one acts or the roles of the masculine and feminine _within that society_. So of course "gender differences" are not going to turn up a lot in the academic world since a self-identifying masculine male should have the same biology as a self-identifying feminine male. Googling for "sex brain difference" or something like that may help (in google scholar or a journal database, probably not plain google). One other data point is that it is worth investigating women in technology in other societies. According to this (old) study: http://www.frauen.inf.ethz.ch/stats/international_stat_frauen.pdf http://www.frauen.inf.ethz.ch/stats/international_stat_fraue... women are in the majority for a few asian countries. Just some thoughts.
rada 15y ago
The problem with brain chemistry and other "hard facts" is that they are always cherry-picked to justify one's position post factum. Example: where I grew up, girls were considered to be better at technical disciplines because in class, girls sit still and pay attention while boys clown around and pick fights. On a larger note, please don't add to the fire saying that women are less interested in any kind of intellectual pursuits, be it aspects of programming or else. This is exactly the kind of dickery that needs to go away.
- oh_sigh 15y ago
  "The problem with brain chemistry and other "hard facts" is that they are always cherry-picked to justify one's position post factum" And therefore, brain chemistry plays no role whatsoever? "On a larger note, please don't add to the fire saying that women are less interested in any kind of intellectual pursuits" Why not, if it is true? Is it wrong to say that men are less interested in knitting than women? I'd like to know making true statements about a population is "dickery".
  - aswanson 15y ago
    Brain chemistry most likely plays some type of role, but if you are not in a position to quantify and explain to what degree and under what circumstance in a given situation, phrases like that lend themselves to lazy, armchair-scientist type sentiment that do nothing to raise the level of conversation.
vibrunazo 15y ago
> but also because a smaller proportion of women are interested in the particular types of analysis that are relevant to programming. 1) That's pure speculation. You have no way to be sure of that. 2) That same speculation is often, and very often used as an excuse for offensive discrimination. So it's simply the most safe, skeptic, scientific and socially healthy attitude for us. To stay as far away from that speculation as much we can.
anigbrowl 15y ago
Brain chemistry is relevant to logical analysis. Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry. Law involves a great deal of logical analysis and there doesn't seem to be any shortage of capable women lawyers, despite a good deal of institutional discrimination in the past.
- MartinCron 15y ago
  This is a great example that should be mentioned more often.
calibraxis 15y ago
Women are said to be better at language, but that didn't keep Shakespeare and Gabriel García Márquez from being great writers. This pseudoscience typically accompanies discussions of gender and racial superiority.

Stwerp 15y ago

Do you mean sex or gender? (Remember, words are assigned gender but cannot have sex.) I'm not going to try to argue the brain chemistry thing^, but the social/culture aspect is a large problem and (as you bring up) can also partially explain why there are few women as well as men choosing to live effeminately in programming or technical jobs. ^Edit for clarity: Because I think its a totally loaded statement and don't want to even start down that path, not because I agree and assume its fact.

pharrington 15y ago

"Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry." Quantify how sex affects the brain in specific ways that effect the likelihood of developing an interesting in programming and being an effective programmer. Until we can do this, essentially saying "physiology affects your organs" is a pretty empty statement.

Produce 15y ago
That's like saying that until we can quantify how far Paris is from London, "Paris is far from London" is a pretty empty statement. Pretty sure that people understood that locations can be some distance away from each other before they could quantify exactly how much distance.
- pharrington 15y ago
  Huh? If someone knows neither where Paris nor London are, then yes, saying "Paris is far from London" indeed isn't useful. Is the distance between them a two hour drive? Do they lie half-way around the world from each other? Except in pathological cases, we barely know how physiology affects large scale behavior, let alone how particular brain functions influence how one's interests develop and how they excel at activities, especially in the midst of the confounding environmental factors such as upbringing, schooling, and culture. We don't know where Paris or London are on the map.
  - Produce 15y ago
    But we do know the net effects of sex on developing an interest in programming, namely that there is a negative correlation between being female and having said interest. The question is what comprises this effect and how much of it is nature as opposed to nurture. Basically, it depends on if you approach it from a hollistic perspective (where the effect of sex is the compound of physical capability and social influences and whatever else) or a narrow perspective (how does the Y chromosome influence analytical capability). In the wide perspective, the answer is clear - there are indeed differences in how males and females process their environment (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9JNbJB0PhGEJ:www.psychonomic.org/pubmed/mc/mc-28-1333.pdf+&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgFSyi1DnQg9j6kxkrUb6lbPKD5fvxs36ZnjD0E-1RN0UBjv02kFAMtTHn-1vhvtQf-6RLiFaDnzG_IN1-DXvluSGS1FeqiA5s1iqioqGi_Xf26V9tV2SUBLH7lcQqR6Q5jpUR_&sig=AHIEtbR147MxK545fxbBoj6r6h0RH94WYg&pli=1 https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9JNbJB0PhGEJ:...). In the narrow perspective, it may never be clear for environment influences genetic expression (http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/environmental-influences-on-gene-expression-536 http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/environmental-influ...). In other words, it's possible that the genetics expressed in a human are themselves socially influenced. Or, for a bigger picture, an individual having a Y chromosome is treated differently by their environment which in turn results in a different genetic expression and, by extension, different preferences and capabilities. Or to put it yet another way, nature influences nuture which, in turn, influences nature. It's a feedback loop. Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_psychology#Intelligence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_psychology#Intelligence To summarise the above link, there is greater variation in adult men's intelligence and they are over-represented at the tail end as well as having a higher average intelligence. So we do indeed know where both Paris and London are at this point, we just don't know enough about geology to guess how they got there.
Dove 15y ago
Quantify how sex affects the brain in specific ways that effect the likelihood of developing an interesting in programming and being an effective programmer. I'm not sure I can be quite that specific, but there are some very well-established differences in the way men and women think, and the way the respond to stress. See here: http://bible.org/seriespage/biological-basis-gender-specific-behavior http://bible.org/seriespage/biological-basis-gender-specific... [1] . . . particularly sections V and VII. I wouldn't go so far as to say we know how gender affects brain chemistry specifically as it refers to programming, only that we know it does affect how we think, process information, and handle stress. And those things seem like they would be relevant. Don't they? That is to say, I wouldn't say I know ALL of the differences between us are innate, only that I find it plausible that a lot of them are. And that I'm hesitant to treat statistically underrepresented women as necessarily a problem. [1] You'll have to excuse the bible.org reference; the christian academic community seems to be about the only one in which one can have a serious conversation about innate differences between the genders without getting immediately taken out and shot. You have my assurance that the discussion in the article is interesting and scientific, and comes with copious footnotes to mainstream sources.
- Stwerp 15y ago
  > the christian academic community seems to be about the only one in which one can have a serious conversation about innate differences between the genders without getting immediately taken out and shot. (Sorry, I don't mean to harp on this too much, but after hanging out around a sociologist with a pet peeve, it has sadly rubbed off on me.) This may be because in the academic community "gender" has an entirely different meaning that "sex." Sex (and the sex differences) relate to biological differences, male and female. Gender (and gender differences) relate to society, culture, and how one acts or the roles of the masculine and feminine _within that society_. So of course "gender differences" are not going to turn up a lot in the academic world since a self-identifying masculine male should have the same biology as a self-identifying feminine male. Googling for "sex brain difference" or something like that may help (in google scholar or a journal database, probably not plain google). One other data point is that it is worth investigating women in technology in other societies. According to this (old) study: http://www.frauen.inf.ethz.ch/stats/international_stat_frauen.pdf http://www.frauen.inf.ethz.ch/stats/international_stat_fraue... women are in the majority for a few asian countries. Just some thoughts.

rada 15y ago

The problem with brain chemistry and other "hard facts" is that they are always cherry-picked to justify one's position post factum. Example: where I grew up, girls were considered to be better at technical disciplines because in class, girls sit still and pay attention while boys clown around and pick fights. On a larger note, please don't add to the fire saying that women are less interested in any kind of intellectual pursuits, be it aspects of programming or else. This is exactly the kind of dickery that needs to go away.

oh_sigh 15y ago
"The problem with brain chemistry and other "hard facts" is that they are always cherry-picked to justify one's position post factum" And therefore, brain chemistry plays no role whatsoever? "On a larger note, please don't add to the fire saying that women are less interested in any kind of intellectual pursuits" Why not, if it is true? Is it wrong to say that men are less interested in knitting than women? I'd like to know making true statements about a population is "dickery".
- aswanson 15y ago
  Brain chemistry most likely plays some type of role, but if you are not in a position to quantify and explain to what degree and under what circumstance in a given situation, phrases like that lend themselves to lazy, armchair-scientist type sentiment that do nothing to raise the level of conversation.

vibrunazo 15y ago

> but also because a smaller proportion of women are interested in the particular types of analysis that are relevant to programming. 1) That's pure speculation. You have no way to be sure of that. 2) That same speculation is often, and very often used as an excuse for offensive discrimination. So it's simply the most safe, skeptic, scientific and socially healthy attitude for us. To stay as far away from that speculation as much we can.

anigbrowl 15y ago

Brain chemistry is relevant to logical analysis. Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry. Law involves a great deal of logical analysis and there doesn't seem to be any shortage of capable women lawyers, despite a good deal of institutional discrimination in the past.

MartinCron 15y ago
This is a great example that should be mentioned more often.

calibraxis 15y ago

Women are said to be better at language, but that didn't keep Shakespeare and Gabriel García Márquez from being great writers. This pseudoscience typically accompanies discussions of gender and racial superiority.