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Sure, but there is difference between "racist things happen" and truly systemic oppression at the state-level like it was in the U.S. when Black people didn't h

• scarecrowbob 3y ago
  For context, I am sitting on land that abuts a Mescalero reservation, and I drove through Dine and Ute lands to get to this place. Perhaps that history colors my understanding of nationalist projects in the 19th and 20th centuries. I feel that it's often the case that a group of people is given a government-in-name-only and then still ruled over by a larger and more aggressive group (who typically has more guns). This seems like an important element when you have a group of people who are heterogeneous to a ruling regime that cannot establish the kinds of linguistic and ethnic markers that 19th and 20th century powers found so important in drawing lines on maps- if you have a bunch of folks who don't speak the language that you want to call the national language, then it seems like the proper high modernist response is to declare them non-citizens, deport them, and when no one wants the surplus population, you can put them in camps and eventually liquidate them. That's what the US tried to do, at least, and it was what the Germans were doing for a while. But I don't know much of Palestine, only what I have seen where I live. Maybe it's not like that there. I've seen enough video and heard enough stories that my picture of imperial military/police forces certianly leads me to believe that folks there have it even worse than black and brown folks in Texas, and I know a great deal about how bad it is there. But I could just be mis-seeing and mis-hearing the world. To be honest, I think that there are still systematic issues of racism in Texas, but that's neither here nor there. All places are unique and different. My opinion, as a direct descendant of the racist slave holders who founded the place, is that it's got it's own unique flavor of racism, and that the issues around that have never been fully redressed. However, at some points "all" people were granted "full citizenship" in Texas, which does help. Even if the government of Texas won't use Spanish to conduct business with the 28% of folks there who speak it as their native language. Like I said, though, I don't know much about Palestine. In your comment here, you ask if I think it is necessary for full citizenship to be granted to Palestinians. I suppose, on it's face, it seems strange to me that they don't have full citizenship, because if they don'e then you'd be incorrect about your assertion that they already have full equal rights. But that's also probably just a misunderstanding I have about the situation there. I will say, though, that I find states where citizenship depends on ones' ethnic or religious identity to be very dangerous, as those identities have often shifted and people will do violence to maintain those national identities. So my guesses about the safety of a state Jewish-only state have more to do with those thoughts than a hatred for anyone. I don't believe that nationalist projects are very safe in general, for any party. That's just an opinion. I have, however, been told that it's possible to create states where ones identity isn't the basis of ones civil rights. That is the line which says that Texas isn't racist in its operation. If that is true, it seems like in a "good" state it wouldn't matter who you are, all humans have full rights and can participate democratically in the state that rules them. In the US, I think that the Movement of Black Lives makes some excellent points among which is the idea that if the state cannot abuse black people, it probably can't abuse white folks, either, so work for racial justice is a matter of solidarity for all people. I think we both know that is unlikely the case- that's a problem I see in Texas, and that belief is reflected in your assertion that if Palestinians had full rights in Israel then Jewish folks might have similar problems to minorities in other states. That's a sad outcome, but since I don't have a lot of faith in nationalist projects I am not surprised when they start to liquidate their surplus populations. It's not hate, just a sadness at having seen that done where I live by my ancestors. And I don't know if I agree that a non-Jewish state means rule by people like Hamas is a necessary outcome of ending that nationalist project. Perhaps naively, I personally think that the bloodthirstiness of folks like Hamas is only sustained by the harshness of the treatment that they were given, but that might just be my own issues with the Mescalero, who don't kill as many folks here as they did 120 or so years ago.
  • xpl 3y ago
    > it seems strange to me that they don't have full citizenship They don't because now what we call Palestine is a separate state, like Mexico to the U.S. We don't give Mexicans citizenship automatically just because they're neighbors, isn't it? Also imagine if Mexico fired rockets to the U.S. on a daily basis, and most of its population supported outright terrorism against the Americans... what would have the U.S. done? I bet it wouldn't keep its borders open welcomingly, at the very least. P.S. The analogy is far fetched, I know. Still worth noting that there actually was a Mexican-American war quite a while ago, resulting in the annexation of Texas by the U.S. > then you'd be incorrect about your assertion that they already have full equal rights. Because I was talking about Israeli Arabs, not Palestinian Arabs. It was the original U.N. plan to create two states, Jewish and Arab. Arab people were supposed to build their own state, but they never managed to do it properly, choosing the bloody path of aggression, insisting that Israel is an abomination on Palestinian land and just shouldn't exist. > it's possible to create states where ones identity isn't the basis of ones civil rights Let's not conflate immigration rules (that can be arbitrarily prohibitive) and civil rights for citizens. Israel is indeed a nationalistic state and today it is almost impossible to obtain citizenship for non-Jewish people, which is like, by design? But for its citizens, it does not discriminate against Arabs that happen to be Israeli (>20% of all population). This is important and what makes it "not apartheid". Not more than any other country that is built around the idea of preserving some specific identity. It does not automatically mean that it oppresses other identities. Like, in many Asian countries you can't ever have citizenship other than by being born there! Israel is more inclusive, because you at least can become Jew by converting to Judaism. So it is not even about ethnicity...