5 ms·

These "I'm shocked, outraged, sick to my stomach." postings make me always a bit uncomfortable. It seems to me that there are two ways one can approach this su

by stfu 15y ago

These "I'm shocked, outraged, sick to my stomach." postings make me always a bit uncomfortable. It seems to me that there are two ways one can approach this subject. On to proclaim that these are intentional acts of portraying females in a negative light and keeping them out of the tech industry. The other, that these are just a bunch of nerds, trying (and in large parts failing) to make coding something "oool" or a "manly" thing to do. As always the interpretation of these things is to a certain degree based on the personal frame one puts these events in a context with.

hej 15y ago
I'm not sure how that makes it better. The consequences are the same.
cgh 15y ago
Or, young males (I am male but no longer so young) are just generally oblivious when it comes to empathizing with others, particularly women. Blame testosterone. I believe the problem can be curbed by companies that watch out for this sort of thing, but you'll always have a certain unpleasant minority of "boys being boys".
whateverer 15y ago
> It seems to me that there are two ways one can approach this subject. On to proclaim that these are intentional acts of portraying females in a negative light and keeping them out of the tech industry. I'm not sure I've actually seen this interpretation being presented here or anywhere else (though I veer off blog comments, they are sometimes good, but not worth the risk of reading the Facebook-quality ones). I think it's pretty well recognized that this is the product of both immaturity and stubborn ignorance, which makes it acceptable for too many folks in this industry to just trample over women nonchalantly with their attitudes and ``jokes''.
showerst 15y ago
Here's the thing - It doesn't matter. If you run {startup X}, and your business guy puts out a presentation with women in bikinis that makes one of your female employees uncomfortable, and you don't do something about it immediately, she has a potential sexual harassment claim that is going to cost {startup X} _years_ worth of funding in legal fees and damages. The "oh {business guy} is just a bit awkward and didn't know any better" defense is NOT going to go far in court. If you thought some piece of software had a chance of failing and costing you millions of dollars and hundreds of hours of distraction, wouldn't you do _everything_ possible to fix it? Legal policy needs to be treated the same way.
- groby_b 15y ago
  I sincerely hope that this is not what people perceive to be the problem with it. (It's also wrong. Sexual harassment claims require repeated offenses that generate a climate of hostility. Yay, corporate sensitivity/harassment training ;) The bigger issue is that - should you have a woman on your team - you just told her in not so many words that you perceive women more as a piece of visual stimulation than an actual person. That hurts. The even bigger issue: You subtly say to all the attendees of your talk that you consider it OK to look at women that way. Enough people do that, you have created a climate of harassment - it just stretches over an entire industry.
  - showerst 15y ago
    You're right that it shouldn't ever have to be the main reason, my point merely is that the punishment is a critical threat to your business, which is something that I think would strike home even among the most misogynistic members of the tech crowd. You're wrong about it requiring repeated events [1] [1] http://www.connellfoley.com/seminar/employharass.html http://www.connellfoley.com/seminar/employharass.html - Search in the page for 'Taylor v. Metzger'. (IANAL, but it's usually better to be safe than sorry when it comes to not being an idiot.)
    - groby_b 15y ago
      True, but it requires extreme circumstances. Unfortunately, the kind of harassment women usually experience is not counted at that. I'll bet money that no jury will consider bikini pictures extreme harassment.
koeselitz 15y ago
This article specifically addresses whether these are intentional acts on the second page, and actually states clearly that they generally aren't: "The most telling aspect of these incidents, says veteran Seattle developer Christy Nicol, is that none of the company leaders involved appeared to realize initially that they'd done something wrong. They had simply crafted messages aimed at young men, apparently assuming: Who else would be drawn to programming jobs?"
wickedchicken 15y ago
> It seems to me that there are two ways one can approach this subject. There are a lot of ways you can approach this subject. I'm going to rely on an example I used before[1]. Let's assume that if you're on this site, you probably build some kind of web technology. Were you aware that a portion of your users are colorblind? Did you just do a mental double-check and go "shoot, I should check up on that?" You didn't actively do anything against colorblind people, it simply wasn't on your radar. You can go through your entire site design, do A/B testing, deploy, get good results, and still be completely unaware of this. When someone comes up to you and says "I'm colorblind, you should add 'OK' to this green button because it's hard for me to use your site without that," what do you do? "Sorry! I didn't intentionally mean to make it hard for you to use! I deeply regret that you can't use the site." or how about "Hey! Chill out! We were just trying to make a good site and the numbers say we're ok!" Both of those answers sound pretty awful and insensitive. And yet, these are the responses to your "two ways" listed above. Probably the correct answer is "Oh wow, we weren't aware that was a problem. We're going to go fix it, can you tell us specifically what is wrong?" Which is exactly the kind of response we need to sexism in technology. It boils down to being aware of how your actions make other people feel, and when an issue is brought up you consider it earnestly. When you figure that out, and learn to handle when you haven't, you can stop "being afraid of accidentally offending someone" (itself casual sexism) and you can actually work to make things inclusive. One great read on this is Ellen Spertus' MIT AI Lab Technical Report[2]. [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3772919 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3772919 [2] http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/pap.html http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/pap.html
- Drbble 15y ago
  What's wrong with the first answer?

by stfu 15y ago

hej 15y ago

I'm not sure how that makes it better. The consequences are the same.

cgh 15y ago

Or, young males (I am male but no longer so young) are just generally oblivious when it comes to empathizing with others, particularly women. Blame testosterone. I believe the problem can be curbed by companies that watch out for this sort of thing, but you'll always have a certain unpleasant minority of "boys being boys".

whateverer 15y ago

> It seems to me that there are two ways one can approach this subject. On to proclaim that these are intentional acts of portraying females in a negative light and keeping them out of the tech industry. I'm not sure I've actually seen this interpretation being presented here or anywhere else (though I veer off blog comments, they are sometimes good, but not worth the risk of reading the Facebook-quality ones). I think it's pretty well recognized that this is the product of both immaturity and stubborn ignorance, which makes it acceptable for too many folks in this industry to just trample over women nonchalantly with their attitudes and ``jokes''.

showerst 15y ago

Here's the thing - It doesn't matter. If you run {startup X}, and your business guy puts out a presentation with women in bikinis that makes one of your female employees uncomfortable, and you don't do something about it immediately, she has a potential sexual harassment claim that is going to cost {startup X} _years_ worth of funding in legal fees and damages. The "oh {business guy} is just a bit awkward and didn't know any better" defense is NOT going to go far in court. If you thought some piece of software had a chance of failing and costing you millions of dollars and hundreds of hours of distraction, wouldn't you do _everything_ possible to fix it? Legal policy needs to be treated the same way.

groby_b 15y ago
I sincerely hope that this is not what people perceive to be the problem with it. (It's also wrong. Sexual harassment claims require repeated offenses that generate a climate of hostility. Yay, corporate sensitivity/harassment training ;) The bigger issue is that - should you have a woman on your team - you just told her in not so many words that you perceive women more as a piece of visual stimulation than an actual person. That hurts. The even bigger issue: You subtly say to all the attendees of your talk that you consider it OK to look at women that way. Enough people do that, you have created a climate of harassment - it just stretches over an entire industry.
- showerst 15y ago
  You're right that it shouldn't ever have to be the main reason, my point merely is that the punishment is a critical threat to your business, which is something that I think would strike home even among the most misogynistic members of the tech crowd. You're wrong about it requiring repeated events [1] [1] http://www.connellfoley.com/seminar/employharass.html http://www.connellfoley.com/seminar/employharass.html - Search in the page for 'Taylor v. Metzger'. (IANAL, but it's usually better to be safe than sorry when it comes to not being an idiot.)
  - groby_b 15y ago
    True, but it requires extreme circumstances. Unfortunately, the kind of harassment women usually experience is not counted at that. I'll bet money that no jury will consider bikini pictures extreme harassment.

koeselitz 15y ago

This article specifically addresses whether these are intentional acts on the second page, and actually states clearly that they generally aren't: "The most telling aspect of these incidents, says veteran Seattle developer Christy Nicol, is that none of the company leaders involved appeared to realize initially that they'd done something wrong. They had simply crafted messages aimed at young men, apparently assuming: Who else would be drawn to programming jobs?"

wickedchicken 15y ago

> It seems to me that there are two ways one can approach this subject. There are a lot of ways you can approach this subject. I'm going to rely on an example I used before[1]. Let's assume that if you're on this site, you probably build some kind of web technology. Were you aware that a portion of your users are colorblind? Did you just do a mental double-check and go "shoot, I should check up on that?" You didn't actively do anything against colorblind people, it simply wasn't on your radar. You can go through your entire site design, do A/B testing, deploy, get good results, and still be completely unaware of this. When someone comes up to you and says "I'm colorblind, you should add 'OK' to this green button because it's hard for me to use your site without that," what do you do? "Sorry! I didn't intentionally mean to make it hard for you to use! I deeply regret that you can't use the site." or how about "Hey! Chill out! We were just trying to make a good site and the numbers say we're ok!" Both of those answers sound pretty awful and insensitive. And yet, these are the responses to your "two ways" listed above. Probably the correct answer is "Oh wow, we weren't aware that was a problem. We're going to go fix it, can you tell us specifically what is wrong?" Which is exactly the kind of response we need to sexism in technology. It boils down to being aware of how your actions make other people feel, and when an issue is brought up you consider it earnestly. When you figure that out, and learn to handle when you haven't, you can stop "being afraid of accidentally offending someone" (itself casual sexism) and you can actually work to make things inclusive. One great read on this is Ellen Spertus' MIT AI Lab Technical Report[2]. [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3772919 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3772919 [2] http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/pap.html http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/pap.html

Drbble 15y ago
What's wrong with the first answer?