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I offered the Lightning Network as a single example. I don't agree with you, but it's largely irrelevant at this stage. The fact is that Bitcoin is very likely

by npoc 3y ago

I offered the Lightning Network as a single example. I don't agree with you, but it's largely irrelevant at this stage. The fact is that Bitcoin is very likely to absorb a vast percentage of the worlds value simply as it is. Once this has happened its value will stabilise and it will become useful as a unit of account/day-to-day currency. By this point, there will be far more motivation to focus on developing solutions (such as Lightning) to allow smaller and faster transactions.

smoldesu 3y ago
> The fact is that Bitcoin is very likely to absorb a vast percentage of the worlds value simply as it is. You present this as a fact, but the actual valuation of Bitcoin doesn't seem to support this claim. John McAfee bet (and proverbially lost) his testicles on broad estimations of Bitcoin's continued growth. Without extraordinary evidence, you can't make claims of extraordinary provenience. > there will be far more motivation to focus on developing solutions (such as Lightning) to allow smaller and faster transactions. If you need an L2 transaction layer to solve an issue inherent to an L1 chain, you're kinda just admitting that the base layer is flawed. Why use Bitcoin at all if we need mediators to settle regular transactions? The "we'll fix it later" mentality works for shitty altcoins that have nothing to lose by reinventing themselves, but I'm not convinced Bitcoin can change. I was mining Bitcoin about a decade ago now, hearing people say "Lightning will work soon" or "a good interchain bridge will exist eventually" in 2024 leaves me convinced nothing has changed. It's a race between the economics and the technology to see which becomes outdated first.
- thinkmassive 3y ago
  > If you need an L2 transaction layer to solve an issue inherent to an L1 chain, you're kinda just admitting that the base layer is flawed. On a similar note, TCP is an admission that IP is flawed. And HTTP is proof that the entire networking stack is a scam. Clearly, any decent networking protocol would handle any and all information interchange anyone could ever need. The fact that HTTP is on its third iteration, and it’s still built in top of the same Internet Protocol from 1974, proves that _nothing_ has changed. /s
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    None of what you said is inherently wrong. Much like the OSI model, if you reinvented Bitcoin today it would look much different. Unlike the OSI model, Bitcoin's solution to finance is not modular or all-encompassing. If it's not going to adapt to modern demands, it will get replaced. There's no point in keeping around a financial solution that is impossible to fix when it breaks.
CyberDildonics 3y ago
The fact is that Bitcoin is very likely to absorb a vast percentage of the worlds value simply as it is. Your prediction for the future that a ledger with the throughput of a 28.8 modem will absorb the world's value is "fact"? By this point, there will be far more motivation to focus on developing solutions (such as Lightning) to allow smaller and faster transactions. It has been in the works for a decade and no one wants it. Why would someone use that when any other cryptocurrency (except for ethereum) already do small and fast transactions? https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactionfees-doge-ltc-bch.html#3m https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactionfees-doge-lt...
- npoc 3y ago
  > Your prediction for the future that a ledger with the throughput of a 28.8 modem will absorb the world's value is "fact"? Yes, the base layer network is ideally suited for storing extremely large amounts of wealth, for large amounts of time. No other asset has qualities that come close, they all leak value compared to bitcoin.
  - CyberDildonics 3y ago
    Where did you read this and why did you believe it? There is no technical reason this is true of course, for many reasons, including that many of the earliest coins are clones of bitcoin. Are you copying some talking points or can you explain on a fundamental level why you believe this?
    - npoc 3y ago
      Fundamentally it comes down to perfect scarcity. If you increase supply, the value in your share leaks into the new supply. As far as clones. Network effect takes care of that. They would have to be substantially better than bitcoin to beat it and that is extremely unlikely to happen as bitcoin is close to perfect.
      - CyberDildonics 3y ago

by npoc 3y ago

smoldesu 3y ago

> The fact is that Bitcoin is very likely to absorb a vast percentage of the worlds value simply as it is. You present this as a fact, but the actual valuation of Bitcoin doesn't seem to support this claim. John McAfee bet (and proverbially lost) his testicles on broad estimations of Bitcoin's continued growth. Without extraordinary evidence, you can't make claims of extraordinary provenience. > there will be far more motivation to focus on developing solutions (such as Lightning) to allow smaller and faster transactions. If you need an L2 transaction layer to solve an issue inherent to an L1 chain, you're kinda just admitting that the base layer is flawed. Why use Bitcoin at all if we need mediators to settle regular transactions? The "we'll fix it later" mentality works for shitty altcoins that have nothing to lose by reinventing themselves, but I'm not convinced Bitcoin can change. I was mining Bitcoin about a decade ago now, hearing people say "Lightning will work soon" or "a good interchain bridge will exist eventually" in 2024 leaves me convinced nothing has changed. It's a race between the economics and the technology to see which becomes outdated first.

thinkmassive 3y ago
> If you need an L2 transaction layer to solve an issue inherent to an L1 chain, you're kinda just admitting that the base layer is flawed. On a similar note, TCP is an admission that IP is flawed. And HTTP is proof that the entire networking stack is a scam. Clearly, any decent networking protocol would handle any and all information interchange anyone could ever need. The fact that HTTP is on its third iteration, and it’s still built in top of the same Internet Protocol from 1974, proves that _nothing_ has changed. /s
- smoldesu 3y ago
  None of what you said is inherently wrong. Much like the OSI model, if you reinvented Bitcoin today it would look much different. Unlike the OSI model, Bitcoin's solution to finance is not modular or all-encompassing. If it's not going to adapt to modern demands, it will get replaced. There's no point in keeping around a financial solution that is impossible to fix when it breaks.

CyberDildonics 3y ago

The fact is that Bitcoin is very likely to absorb a vast percentage of the worlds value simply as it is. Your prediction for the future that a ledger with the throughput of a 28.8 modem will absorb the world's value is "fact"? By this point, there will be far more motivation to focus on developing solutions (such as Lightning) to allow smaller and faster transactions. It has been in the works for a decade and no one wants it. Why would someone use that when any other cryptocurrency (except for ethereum) already do small and fast transactions? https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactionfees-doge-ltc-bch.html#3m https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactionfees-doge-lt...

npoc 3y ago
> Your prediction for the future that a ledger with the throughput of a 28.8 modem will absorb the world's value is "fact"? Yes, the base layer network is ideally suited for storing extremely large amounts of wealth, for large amounts of time. No other asset has qualities that come close, they all leak value compared to bitcoin.
- CyberDildonics 3y ago
  Where did you read this and why did you believe it? There is no technical reason this is true of course, for many reasons, including that many of the earliest coins are clones of bitcoin. Are you copying some talking points or can you explain on a fundamental level why you believe this?
  - npoc 3y ago
    Fundamentally it comes down to perfect scarcity. If you increase supply, the value in your share leaks into the new supply. As far as clones. Network effect takes care of that. They would have to be substantially better than bitcoin to beat it and that is extremely unlikely to happen as bitcoin is close to perfect.
    - CyberDildonics 3y ago