5 ms·

Nice! I did this back in 2003 for my MEng, and took a similar approach but using MIDI and musical notes/scales rather than direct waveforms. I did get some pro

by choult 3y ago

Nice! I did this back in 2003 for my MEng, and took a similar approach but using MIDI and musical notes/scales rather than direct waveforms. I did get some promising results - what are fugues but fractal music? - but was never musical enough to do anything more with it.

p1esk 3y ago
I don’t see how fugues are fractal. Care to explain?
- sargstuff 3y ago
  Focusing on just the music, sounds like difference in song complexity / embelishment spinoffs. Different approach constrasting tree generated by room sonar example[0] and Salieri/Mozart song[1]. Initial Salieri song simple 'tree' per single source mono-soundings. Mozart 'sterioized' Salieri's initial song by embelishment/counterpoint. aka the more detailed 'tree' spin-offs. --- [0] : http://sites.music.columbia.edu/cmc/courses/g6610/fall2003/week4/index.html http://sites.music.columbia.edu/cmc/courses/g6610/fall2003/w... [1] : Mozart insults Salieri by playing he own piece better than he did : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jlQiHHMlkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jlQiHHMlkA
  - p1esk 3y ago
    I didn't quite understand your first link, or what it has to do with music. But the second link points to something that is neither a fugue nor fractal in any way. Mozart's piece played there has no fractal properties, and deviates completely from the original Salieri melody. Perhaps you're confusing fractality with a regular counterpoint? To clarify, a temporally fractal musical composition would be self similar on different time scales. For example, if we consider a 7 note melody, then we could, in the simplest case, make it fractal by inserting the same 7 note melody (perhaps using a different key, or even a slight variation, but still easily recognizable as the original melody) between selected two notes (preferably neighboring) of the original melody. Still, I find your remark "what are fugues but fractal music?" interesting, because fugues might be the most suitable musical structures to have a fractal property. In a complex 4 or 5 voice fugue, as the voices partially overlap, sometimes a higher level melody emerges, and this melody could, in principle, be constructed to mimic the common theme. I have never noticed any fugues to be fractal, but I wouldn't be surprised if a genius like Bach had tried to compose such a fugue, and it would be interesting to hear it.
    - sargstuff 3y ago
      Ok, was viewing more from waveform point of view aka attack, decay,sustain, release (ADSR). Where each component of ADSR is a "voice" track. Put each ADSR in one of of 4 ecludian quadrants for 'time reference' Would suggest Lewis Carrol's 'Through the looking glass' per quadroons. Unfortuantely, Lewis Carrol didn't recognize time as an aspect of quadroons. (where time is big part of music). From wave form aspect, changing scale (mapping scale) would produce richer form of information vs. non-fractal would result in just zooming in to specific proportion of interest. Ignoring fact human voice can't generate 'pure tones'; four voice parts impart additional harmonics not noted on page. just the 'instrument' variatioin: beetles songs pre-stratocast vs. post-stratocast. Another way to look at it, is single voice part, progression left to right. non-fractal note is stricktly a single tone, no sub-harmonics. fractal note is everything associate with single tone within given tone range (harmonic resonance). L-system branchs equivalent to sub-harmonics, where each sub-branch is addtional harmonic. Simple graph combo of ADSR/4 voices gives smooth flow/progression vs. adding spin offs to any of the ADSR/4 voices either directly or because combining produces addtional harmonics beyond original ADSR/4 voices would give 'fractal results'. ASDR quadrant -- simple non-fractal "pure" tone would have simple circle in each of 4 ecludian quadrants. Additional subtones would be addtional circle(s) in relevant quadrant, where circle size related to reference tone (smaller for sub harmonics, larger for over-tones). no decay -> no circle in corresponding decay quadrant. aka wider harmonics range looking at, more detail & more addative harmonics, Less harmonics range, less detail / less addative harmonics to plot. More voice vocal parts, more potential for additional harmonics combinations. simple instrument example -- beetles before stratocaster guitar vs. post stratocaster guitar songs. Later much fuller tones & less distinct harmonics. from complete composition view: mozart's heros metalica : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBfsS1EGyWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBfsS1EGyWc
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - sargstuff 3y ago
      What about comparing fractal scale differences between a song done in two different composition styles (where scales don't quite match up)? Medieval style 'Take on me' : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC7KlX9B2Q8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC7KlX9B2Q8 Modern pop style 'Take on me' : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bT5bFzQInQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bT5bFzQInQ

by choult 3y ago

p1esk 3y ago

I don’t see how fugues are fractal. Care to explain?

sargstuff 3y ago
Focusing on just the music, sounds like difference in song complexity / embelishment spinoffs. Different approach constrasting tree generated by room sonar example[0] and Salieri/Mozart song[1]. Initial Salieri song simple 'tree' per single source mono-soundings. Mozart 'sterioized' Salieri's initial song by embelishment/counterpoint. aka the more detailed 'tree' spin-offs. --- [0] : http://sites.music.columbia.edu/cmc/courses/g6610/fall2003/week4/index.html http://sites.music.columbia.edu/cmc/courses/g6610/fall2003/w... [1] : Mozart insults Salieri by playing he own piece better than he did : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jlQiHHMlkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jlQiHHMlkA
- p1esk 3y ago
  I didn't quite understand your first link, or what it has to do with music. But the second link points to something that is neither a fugue nor fractal in any way. Mozart's piece played there has no fractal properties, and deviates completely from the original Salieri melody. Perhaps you're confusing fractality with a regular counterpoint? To clarify, a temporally fractal musical composition would be self similar on different time scales. For example, if we consider a 7 note melody, then we could, in the simplest case, make it fractal by inserting the same 7 note melody (perhaps using a different key, or even a slight variation, but still easily recognizable as the original melody) between selected two notes (preferably neighboring) of the original melody. Still, I find your remark "what are fugues but fractal music?" interesting, because fugues might be the most suitable musical structures to have a fractal property. In a complex 4 or 5 voice fugue, as the voices partially overlap, sometimes a higher level melody emerges, and this melody could, in principle, be constructed to mimic the common theme. I have never noticed any fugues to be fractal, but I wouldn't be surprised if a genius like Bach had tried to compose such a fugue, and it would be interesting to hear it.
  - sargstuff 3y ago
    Ok, was viewing more from waveform point of view aka attack, decay,sustain, release (ADSR). Where each component of ADSR is a "voice" track. Put each ADSR in one of of 4 ecludian quadrants for 'time reference' Would suggest Lewis Carrol's 'Through the looking glass' per quadroons. Unfortuantely, Lewis Carrol didn't recognize time as an aspect of quadroons. (where time is big part of music). From wave form aspect, changing scale (mapping scale) would produce richer form of information vs. non-fractal would result in just zooming in to specific proportion of interest. Ignoring fact human voice can't generate 'pure tones'; four voice parts impart additional harmonics not noted on page. just the 'instrument' variatioin: beetles songs pre-stratocast vs. post-stratocast. Another way to look at it, is single voice part, progression left to right. non-fractal note is stricktly a single tone, no sub-harmonics. fractal note is everything associate with single tone within given tone range (harmonic resonance). L-system branchs equivalent to sub-harmonics, where each sub-branch is addtional harmonic. Simple graph combo of ADSR/4 voices gives smooth flow/progression vs. adding spin offs to any of the ADSR/4 voices either directly or because combining produces addtional harmonics beyond original ADSR/4 voices would give 'fractal results'. ASDR quadrant -- simple non-fractal "pure" tone would have simple circle in each of 4 ecludian quadrants. Additional subtones would be addtional circle(s) in relevant quadrant, where circle size related to reference tone (smaller for sub harmonics, larger for over-tones). no decay -> no circle in corresponding decay quadrant. aka wider harmonics range looking at, more detail & more addative harmonics, Less harmonics range, less detail / less addative harmonics to plot. More voice vocal parts, more potential for additional harmonics combinations. simple instrument example -- beetles before stratocaster guitar vs. post stratocaster guitar songs. Later much fuller tones & less distinct harmonics. from complete composition view: mozart's heros metalica : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBfsS1EGyWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBfsS1EGyWc
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - sargstuff 3y ago
    What about comparing fractal scale differences between a song done in two different composition styles (where scales don't quite match up)? Medieval style 'Take on me' : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC7KlX9B2Q8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC7KlX9B2Q8 Modern pop style 'Take on me' : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bT5bFzQInQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bT5bFzQInQ