4 ms·

That only follows if God didn’t enable free will. Most theists believe God will redeem and rehabilitate the entire universe once time is up. For example, Christ

That only follows if God didn’t enable free will. Most theists believe God will redeem and rehabilitate the entire universe once time is up. For example, Christians believe that sin is responsible for a fallen world and that God will fix not just the planet, but the entire universe.

SigmundA 3y ago
How can you make a choice through free will that God didn't anticipate or in fact intend since he created good/evil/free will and in fact all things?
- wait_a_minute 3y ago
  Same way you can predict the weather even though predicting it doesn't cause it to happen. God's prediction abilities would have been honed over trillions of years versus our few decades of computerized meteorology. It doesn't follow that just because you know something is going to happen that you cause it to happen. I think some things are left up to people with certain major events in people's lives and indeed in society at large being determined ahead of time, and in those cases how people respond to what happens is where they exercise their free will. Other times they're allowed to choose something of their own choosing from options provided or allowed by God.
  - SigmundA 3y ago
    God created the weather along with the rest of the universe he doesn't predict it. The only way he wouldn't know the outcome is if there is an outside force or source of entropy not created by him. If I program a virtual world that includes virtual beings it would be idiocy to blame them or worse punish them for any choice they make, I programmed their ability to make choices they only do what I created them to do.
    - wait_a_minute 3y ago
      I agree that God created the weather and doesn't predict it. I only brought up the weather as an example of systems that humans can predict with high success despite that prediction not having any causal impacts. The predictors don't by their prediction cause the predicted. So we have an example of a system where there is some kind of mechanism by which we see that it is possible to know without causing. I agree with you as well that it would be...unfair in some sense to punish or blame people for their bad choices. I think this is complex enough that the only way to treat the subject with nuance is to consider a specific religious theology. This is because we need to know what God's attributes are. In the typical Abrahamic sense, God is considered to be perfect and holy. That is why he cannot be in the same place as sin without just destroying it. It's the same with how light in a dark room necessarily lights up the darkness. It just cannot help but light up the darkness - it is in its nature. But since God is also perfect in love and in mercy, this means that he doesn't really blame people for much. In fact, that's why he forgives and saves and loves. If he really blamed or punished people for their choices, well, nobody would make it. But again, my view is that God is love and that mercy is his greatest attribute. And that this is consistent with his perfection.
      - SigmundA 3y ago
        >So we have an example of a system where there is some kind of mechanism by which we see that it is possible to know without causing. How is it possible for God to not be the cause of all things since he's is the creator of all things? If god did not cause something then that means there is something that god did not create and came from somewhere else. Revelation 21:6 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. >. That is why he cannot be in the same place as sin without just destroying it. So god did not create sin? This seems in contradiction with him creating all things. >But since God is also perfect in love and in mercy, this means that he doesn't really blame people for much. Genesis 3:16 - To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you. Sound like blame and punishment to me that all women get to share for ones choice long ago to eat from the tree of knowledge, pure idiocy.
        3y ago
  - rescbr 3y ago
    God doesn’t predict, God is omniscient. He knows past, present, and future.
    - wait_a_minute 3y ago
      Is that how God defines his power over knowledge, or is it according to human definitions? Ultimately, this being is the one who created reality and decides the limits of what can be known because he is the one furthest in knowledge and prediction powers. God does predict. He knows everything that can be known, and he predicts and makes the future and sometimes lets it go on its own for the sake of free will, but only in the short term.

SigmundA 3y ago

How can you make a choice through free will that God didn't anticipate or in fact intend since he created good/evil/free will and in fact all things?

wait_a_minute 3y ago
Same way you can predict the weather even though predicting it doesn't cause it to happen. God's prediction abilities would have been honed over trillions of years versus our few decades of computerized meteorology. It doesn't follow that just because you know something is going to happen that you cause it to happen. I think some things are left up to people with certain major events in people's lives and indeed in society at large being determined ahead of time, and in those cases how people respond to what happens is where they exercise their free will. Other times they're allowed to choose something of their own choosing from options provided or allowed by God.
- SigmundA 3y ago
  God created the weather along with the rest of the universe he doesn't predict it. The only way he wouldn't know the outcome is if there is an outside force or source of entropy not created by him. If I program a virtual world that includes virtual beings it would be idiocy to blame them or worse punish them for any choice they make, I programmed their ability to make choices they only do what I created them to do.
  - wait_a_minute 3y ago
    I agree that God created the weather and doesn't predict it. I only brought up the weather as an example of systems that humans can predict with high success despite that prediction not having any causal impacts. The predictors don't by their prediction cause the predicted. So we have an example of a system where there is some kind of mechanism by which we see that it is possible to know without causing. I agree with you as well that it would be...unfair in some sense to punish or blame people for their bad choices. I think this is complex enough that the only way to treat the subject with nuance is to consider a specific religious theology. This is because we need to know what God's attributes are. In the typical Abrahamic sense, God is considered to be perfect and holy. That is why he cannot be in the same place as sin without just destroying it. It's the same with how light in a dark room necessarily lights up the darkness. It just cannot help but light up the darkness - it is in its nature. But since God is also perfect in love and in mercy, this means that he doesn't really blame people for much. In fact, that's why he forgives and saves and loves. If he really blamed or punished people for their choices, well, nobody would make it. But again, my view is that God is love and that mercy is his greatest attribute. And that this is consistent with his perfection.
    - SigmundA 3y ago
      >So we have an example of a system where there is some kind of mechanism by which we see that it is possible to know without causing. How is it possible for God to not be the cause of all things since he's is the creator of all things? If god did not cause something then that means there is something that god did not create and came from somewhere else. Revelation 21:6 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. >. That is why he cannot be in the same place as sin without just destroying it. So god did not create sin? This seems in contradiction with him creating all things. >But since God is also perfect in love and in mercy, this means that he doesn't really blame people for much. Genesis 3:16 - To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you. Sound like blame and punishment to me that all women get to share for ones choice long ago to eat from the tree of knowledge, pure idiocy.
      - 3y ago
- rescbr 3y ago
  God doesn’t predict, God is omniscient. He knows past, present, and future.
  - wait_a_minute 3y ago
    Is that how God defines his power over knowledge, or is it according to human definitions? Ultimately, this being is the one who created reality and decides the limits of what can be known because he is the one furthest in knowledge and prediction powers. God does predict. He knows everything that can be known, and he predicts and makes the future and sometimes lets it go on its own for the sake of free will, but only in the short term.