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There's a fair amount of ill-placed arrogance. It seems that the majority on this board confidently and incorrectly believe that they know all there really is t

by npoc 3y ago

There's a fair amount of ill-placed arrogance. It seems that the majority on this board confidently and incorrectly believe that they know all there really is to know about bitcoin. Essentially that it's a scam that wastes energy. If you try to help them understand, you're generally attacked as if you are shill, and then they continue along in their ignorant bubble. It's a shame, but their attitude isn't conducive to me losing any sleep. You buy bitcoin at the price you deserve.

moose_man 3y ago
It's not arrogance and not just that it is scammy or wasteful to the environment. Bitcoin is another mechanism the increases inequality. I think Bitcoin is one of the many way that the economy is rigged against economically insecure retail investors. The more money that gets funneled from the middle class into Michael Saylor and crew's pocket the closer it brings us to civil war. Checkout End Times: Elites, Counter-Elites, and the Path of Political Disintegration by Peter Turchin https://www.amazon.com/End-Times-Counter-Elites-Political-Disintegration/dp/0593490509 https://www.amazon.com/End-Times-Counter-Elites-Political-Di...
- npoc 3y ago
  Ironically this is exactly what bitcoin fixes. Fiat currency is the main cause of these issues (look up the Cantillon effect as an example). It's a cancer on the world, slowly destroying it. I highly recommend reading "The Creature from Jekyll Island" which explains everything that's wrong with central banking/fiat currencies and will help you understand the devastating effect it is having on the world. Sure, there is a transfer of wealth while bitcoin is monetizing. But you buy bitcoin at the price you deserve. Michael Saylor deserves everything he's going to get. He's a visionary with balls of steel - he's laid it all on the line. If you try to avoid making bitcoin whales richer by not buying bitcoin, you'll simply be cutting off your nose to spite your face.
smoldesu 3y ago
Bitcoin itself is a scam that wastes energy. Without custodial ownership, scam transactions are resolved no different than legitimate ones. Without diligent regulation, Bitcoin's power usage can easily balloon beyond what any single institution would consider appropriate. Both of those things are demonstrably true, and providing Bitcoin ETFs via regulated exchanges changes neither one.
- TapWaterBandit 3y ago
  Lol power usage is such a strawman argument. 1% of all electricity in USA is used watching Netflix but you don't hear people complaining. But running a global permissionless decentralised store of value currency network should supposedly be "super cheap" or it's an environmental disaster and must be stopped.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    The reason that bitcoin's energy usage is a philosophical nightmare is because it's a system where energy consumption is the product. As opposed to industries which are "merely" energy-intensive, let's take aluminum refining for example, spending more energy to refine aluminum does not create more demand for aluminum, but spending more energy on bitcoin increases the price of bitcoin, which induces more demand, which increases the price, which incentivizes mining, which costs more energy, and so on in a vicious cycle. Proof of work is a problem; it's conspicuous consumption on a hyper-industrial scale, and it's coming at the absolute worst time in human history for us to be wasting energy, let alone to be inventing the optimal machine for wasting energy at an increasing rate.
    - TapWaterBandit 3y ago
      Proof of Work is an energy-intensive solution to a very deep and old social problem: how do you verify transactions between parties over a great distance/online without a trusted intermediary? Proof of work is enormously socially valuable and will change the world. Bitcoin may not be the PoW application to do it (although it also might be) but proof of work is here to stay because of the huge advantages it has over the existing system where individuals/institutions insert themselves between transactions to their own profit. RE energy, not here to argue philosophy. Just going to point out that if that is your concern luckily the world is going over to renewables so that particular objection will be gone soon anyway.
      - kibwen 3y ago
        > Just going to point out that if that is your concern luckily the world is going over to renewables so that particular objection will be gone soon anyway. This is dangerously missing the peril of the current situation. The problem with our current energy makeup is not "there's not enough renewables". The problem with our current energy makeup is "there are too many carbon emissions". As a first-order effect, it does not matter how many renewables we bring online. What matters is taking fossil fuels offline. It does not matter if renewables make up an ever-increasing percentage of an increasing energy market, because the problem is not the relative market share of fossil fuels, it is the absolute amount of emissions, which is already more than our planet can handle. And the increasing demand for energy makes taking fossil fuel plants offline less viable than it otherwise would be, and bitcoin is a nontrivial component of that and it threatens to grow at an exponential pace, which makes it an existential threat to mankind. Please trust me when I say that I do not give a damn about the price of bitcoin. What I care about is stopping runaway energy consumption, and from that perspective proof-of-work is the biggest existential threat to humanity since the atom bomb.
CynicusRex 3y ago
> You buy bitcoin at the price you deserve. This is out-of-touch on so many levels. What about people born in ten years? What about people born in ten years in developing countries? The only thing crypto“currencies” have done is increase the wealth disparity and greed. https://www.cynicusrex.com/file/cryptocultscience.html https://www.cynicusrex.com/file/cryptocultscience.html
- npoc 3y ago
  The people born in 10 years will have access to a hard money that is time proven, more stable and less risky than it was 10 years ago. They will also see the price of their bitcoin go up relative to fiat. The same goes for people born in 300 years time. Regarding developing countries, bitcoin provides anyone with a phone access to a bank, and one that offers better savings accounts than any fiat account.
  - CynicusRex 3y ago
    So merely by luck of being born earlier you deserve to be wealthier than any future generations?
    - npoc 3y ago
      Go and study it for 100hrs and if you combine that with a bit of intelligence, you'll be in the same position as the "lucky" bitcoiners who get wealthy buying it earlier. Alternatively wait until every man and his dog already have it and the price has stabilised and it's a no brainer (say 10 or 20 years) You buy bitcoin at the price you deserve.
drdrek 3y ago
Its so annoying that Non-WBA holder around here keep arguing with me. I try and explain to them why Walgreens Boots Alliance stock is the future of investing but they are kept in their non WBA bubble. Good luck buying WBA stock at a higher price in the future!

by npoc 3y ago

moose_man 3y ago

It's not arrogance and not just that it is scammy or wasteful to the environment. Bitcoin is another mechanism the increases inequality. I think Bitcoin is one of the many way that the economy is rigged against economically insecure retail investors. The more money that gets funneled from the middle class into Michael Saylor and crew's pocket the closer it brings us to civil war. Checkout End Times: Elites, Counter-Elites, and the Path of Political Disintegration by Peter Turchin https://www.amazon.com/End-Times-Counter-Elites-Political-Disintegration/dp/0593490509 https://www.amazon.com/End-Times-Counter-Elites-Political-Di...

npoc 3y ago
Ironically this is exactly what bitcoin fixes. Fiat currency is the main cause of these issues (look up the Cantillon effect as an example). It's a cancer on the world, slowly destroying it. I highly recommend reading "The Creature from Jekyll Island" which explains everything that's wrong with central banking/fiat currencies and will help you understand the devastating effect it is having on the world. Sure, there is a transfer of wealth while bitcoin is monetizing. But you buy bitcoin at the price you deserve. Michael Saylor deserves everything he's going to get. He's a visionary with balls of steel - he's laid it all on the line. If you try to avoid making bitcoin whales richer by not buying bitcoin, you'll simply be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

smoldesu 3y ago

Bitcoin itself is a scam that wastes energy. Without custodial ownership, scam transactions are resolved no different than legitimate ones. Without diligent regulation, Bitcoin's power usage can easily balloon beyond what any single institution would consider appropriate. Both of those things are demonstrably true, and providing Bitcoin ETFs via regulated exchanges changes neither one.

TapWaterBandit 3y ago
Lol power usage is such a strawman argument. 1% of all electricity in USA is used watching Netflix but you don't hear people complaining. But running a global permissionless decentralised store of value currency network should supposedly be "super cheap" or it's an environmental disaster and must be stopped.
- kibwen 3y ago
  The reason that bitcoin's energy usage is a philosophical nightmare is because it's a system where energy consumption is the product. As opposed to industries which are "merely" energy-intensive, let's take aluminum refining for example, spending more energy to refine aluminum does not create more demand for aluminum, but spending more energy on bitcoin increases the price of bitcoin, which induces more demand, which increases the price, which incentivizes mining, which costs more energy, and so on in a vicious cycle. Proof of work is a problem; it's conspicuous consumption on a hyper-industrial scale, and it's coming at the absolute worst time in human history for us to be wasting energy, let alone to be inventing the optimal machine for wasting energy at an increasing rate.
  - TapWaterBandit 3y ago
    Proof of Work is an energy-intensive solution to a very deep and old social problem: how do you verify transactions between parties over a great distance/online without a trusted intermediary? Proof of work is enormously socially valuable and will change the world. Bitcoin may not be the PoW application to do it (although it also might be) but proof of work is here to stay because of the huge advantages it has over the existing system where individuals/institutions insert themselves between transactions to their own profit. RE energy, not here to argue philosophy. Just going to point out that if that is your concern luckily the world is going over to renewables so that particular objection will be gone soon anyway.
    - kibwen 3y ago
      > Just going to point out that if that is your concern luckily the world is going over to renewables so that particular objection will be gone soon anyway. This is dangerously missing the peril of the current situation. The problem with our current energy makeup is not "there's not enough renewables". The problem with our current energy makeup is "there are too many carbon emissions". As a first-order effect, it does not matter how many renewables we bring online. What matters is taking fossil fuels offline. It does not matter if renewables make up an ever-increasing percentage of an increasing energy market, because the problem is not the relative market share of fossil fuels, it is the absolute amount of emissions, which is already more than our planet can handle. And the increasing demand for energy makes taking fossil fuel plants offline less viable than it otherwise would be, and bitcoin is a nontrivial component of that and it threatens to grow at an exponential pace, which makes it an existential threat to mankind. Please trust me when I say that I do not give a damn about the price of bitcoin. What I care about is stopping runaway energy consumption, and from that perspective proof-of-work is the biggest existential threat to humanity since the atom bomb.

CynicusRex 3y ago

> You buy bitcoin at the price you deserve. This is out-of-touch on so many levels. What about people born in ten years? What about people born in ten years in developing countries? The only thing crypto“currencies” have done is increase the wealth disparity and greed. https://www.cynicusrex.com/file/cryptocultscience.html https://www.cynicusrex.com/file/cryptocultscience.html

npoc 3y ago
The people born in 10 years will have access to a hard money that is time proven, more stable and less risky than it was 10 years ago. They will also see the price of their bitcoin go up relative to fiat. The same goes for people born in 300 years time. Regarding developing countries, bitcoin provides anyone with a phone access to a bank, and one that offers better savings accounts than any fiat account.
- CynicusRex 3y ago
  So merely by luck of being born earlier you deserve to be wealthier than any future generations?
  - npoc 3y ago
    Go and study it for 100hrs and if you combine that with a bit of intelligence, you'll be in the same position as the "lucky" bitcoiners who get wealthy buying it earlier. Alternatively wait until every man and his dog already have it and the price has stabilised and it's a no brainer (say 10 or 20 years) You buy bitcoin at the price you deserve.

drdrek 3y ago

Its so annoying that Non-WBA holder around here keep arguing with me. I try and explain to them why Walgreens Boots Alliance stock is the future of investing but they are kept in their non WBA bubble. Good luck buying WBA stock at a higher price in the future!