16 ms·

"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

• dageshi 14y ago
  Startup = Punk Band. The worse they behave the more publicity they will get, the more people will know about their product. Plus the Techcrunch/Pando Daily's/Motherjones... of this world need something to talk about. Ladies and Gentlemen welcome to the age of the Punk Startup.
  • MartinCron 14y ago
    That's a pretty cynical view of punk bands. Sure, some were behaving badly for publicity. Some were behaving badly because they wanted to behave badly. Some were just about the music. I, for one, DO NOT welcome the new Punk Startup overlords.
  • mrgn 14y ago
    ...except that startups are businesses with fiduciary responsibilities to their investors and shareholders and a legal obligation to obey employment law including not committing or tolerating gender discrimination, harassment, or a hostile work environment.
• reitzensteinm 14y ago
  It absolutely blows my mind that people are still dumb enough to get up at tech conferences and do sexist (in this case sexual) presentations. A backlash seems almost inevitable at this point. Maybe they figure any publicity is good publicity?
  • mikeash 14y ago
    My money would be on something along the lines of, "Yeah, those guys got a lot of backlash, but my presentation is different, it's funny!"
    • reitzensteinm 14y ago
      That might very well be the case, in general. Though not foreseeing a backlash about "gangbang interviews" at this point strains credulity - the network of tech conference presenters is small and well connected.
      • mikeash 14y ago
        I don't know about that. Some people simply have no idea how crude their own jokes are.
  • jgroome 14y ago
    My feeling is that they probably don't even recognise that they're being offensive; if what's being said here is true, that they basically work out of a slightly more grown-up frat house, it makes sense that they'd believe that kind of talk is acceptable.
  • muhfuhkuh 14y ago
    No, it's "king of the mountain, piss on the peons" syndrome. You mix two parts cash infusion, one part Valley atmosphere, a soupcon of pseudo-hacker swagger, then mix in a big glass and let the "semi-technical biz guy" speak on behalf of geeks. My pet theory is that there is a super-secret, down-low, unspoken sociopathic streak running through the Valley that is fairly reminiscent of Wall Street: Aloofness and cold cruelty almost approaching either "evil genius" or "autism spectrum". They don't see alot of women in high positions in the Valley, but they hire them for booth candy or front office whatnots. So, of course, they're doubly cruel to women.
    • Alex3917 14y ago
      Let's compare the scandals we've seen in the last few months with what is (allegedly) said during the typical day at Goldman Sachs: https://twitter.com/#!/gselevator https://twitter.com/#!/gselevator While much of the behavior we've seen is silicon valley is far from exemplary, there really isn't much comparison with wall street, at least not yet.
      • itg 14y ago
        As someone who worked in finance and realizes that it also has problems when it comes to these issues, those tweets are exaggerations/parodies which play into the bankers being sociopaths/douchebags trope. Half those things said in the workplace would get you sent to HR in a blink of an eye.
• debacle 14y ago
  I didn't realize this was such a big problem. I don't think I've ever met a brogrammer outside of the Internet.
  • moron 14y ago
    > I don't think I've ever met a brogrammer outside of the Internet. Precisely.
    • stcredzero 14y ago
      Nerds don't have to bro to make women want to go.
  • droithomme 14y ago
    I've been in the industry for decades and interacted with thousands of developers over this time. I've never seen, met or heard a legitimate report of a brogrammer, being an immature, extroverted party going frat house programmer. It's basically an ESxP on the Myers-Briggs. That personality type doesn't get programming or design at all. I have definitely seen this personality type in sales and executive positions though, also banking and finance, and among VCs. But among programmers? No. Now let's talk about why the US has fewer female programmers than Russia, China and India since that's not always been the case. The work environment is the reason, and also pay. Hostile and confrontational gang-attack style interviews such as the person mentioned in his talk (and spoke out against) are a turn off for many, and women more than men. The writer walked out on the talk before he got to his point, but it sounds like, by criticizing the practice of gang attack interviews, and about to talk about attracting women, he may have been about to point out that fraternities that treat women as peers and respectfully end up with more female interest than fraternities that engage in gang assaults. Comparing recruiting to courtship is not a bad analogy. People don't like being abused and high quality people are going to avoid being in relationships, whether work or personal, where abuse is occurring, such as the many places that have gang attack style interviews.
    • burgerbrain 14y ago
      Exactly. Everyone has worked themselves up into hysterics over the individual words that he used, while failing to recognize what he was saying.
• moron 14y ago
  Sexting, rainbow parties, jenkem, and brogrammers. All of a piece.
  • deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  • chc 14y ago
    You clearly missed the job ad a few months back explicitly requesting a "brogrammer" to fit in with the company culture. Sexting is also quite real (why would MMS be the one medium by which people choose not to send naked pictures of themselves?). So unless you have good proof of rainbow parties and jenkem, you're way off. Note for my rather ignorant downvoting friends: This was a real job ad from a YC company. It used that exact phrasing. Downvoting me doesn't make it stop being real. Perhaps you should deal with your feelings instead of clicking down arrows to make comments go away when they make you feel uncomfortable.
    • EvilTerran 14y ago
      I don't know how to refer people to the guidelines without appearing either rude or condescending... but they do say: Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      • chc 14y ago
        I admit I'm guilty of that at times, but in this particular case, I was not complaining about being downvoted — I was suggesting that the downvoters reconsider their motivations. It was a sincere comment. You will note that nowhere in my comment did I whine about the unfairness of the downvotes or bemoan my lost magical fairy points. I don't know if I'd venture to call it engrossing reading, but at any rate, I think it's less boring than recitations of the guidelines.
        • EvilTerran 14y ago
• joejohnson 14y ago
  Good, I'm glad people walked out of Van Horn's talk. That's the appropriate response to this sort of immature bullshit. This may sound extreme, but if you're surrounded by douche bags who make misogynistic jokes and weave rude and immature anecdotes into a work-related presentation, then these "brogrammers" must believe that this behavior is acceptable. And if you witness this, and laugh along (or even just ignore it), you are tacitly agreeing that this culture is acceptable. Do you want to work in an environment that allows this? I am man, and this sort of culture makes me very uncomfortable and angry. I imagine it's even more aggravating and discomforting to women in these situations. Simply refraining from laughing at a distasteful joke or turning a blind eye to vulgarities is a cop-out. We are all apart of the culture; if you're not calling this shit out, you might as well be laughing along. If you see these behaviors, make an example to call that person out. Make it very clear that this behavior is not accepted. Failure to do so is implicit approval.
  • anichan 14y ago
    See, but the problem is that women, particularly in startups, have to walk a fine line of not letting themselves be objectified and not being labeled a bitch. The article even mentions that there isn't really much of a robust HR policy at small start ups. When women in these situations make it clear that some behavior is not acceptable, they'll inevitably be met by "Woah don't be so serious, it's just a joke! Lighten up!" And the more upset and determined that woman is to make it clear that something isn't acceptable, the more likely they are to be labeled a bitch. Because I'd bet you that 90% of the bad behavior you see in that type of situation isn't blatant sexism; it's small "jokes" and "jabs" that all add up to a bad workplace environment for women. And it makes it that much harder to defend yourself when there isn't just one glaring offense that people can blatantly see. I think making this behavior unacceptable would be helped a lot more if men in the workplace stood up against it. It's not so easy for a woman to do it alone.
    • wunderland 14y ago
      I completely agree. I don't want to say that women need a man to stand up for themselves, but like you said, women have to walk a fine line. If everybody who sees this crap blatantly calls it out, it will wake it easier for anybody (man or woman) to stand up against this.
• sycr 14y ago
  Only one minor point from me: the Dan Shapiro quote is a bit off. > To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is insanity. From the figures I've seen, the handicap is in the 25-30 percent range based on the percentage of women in the industry. But I like his line of thinking. It's an old libertarian argument too: racism and sexism will be rooted out the market by those smart enough to take advantage of the inconsistencies in the labor pool. It's a tremendous opportunity if it's as bad as it seems.
  • krakensden 14y ago
    23-30% seems pretty high. My graduating class (big public university) had less than 10%.
  • zeroonetwothree 14y ago
    Only certain types of men would be attracted to this type of culture. It's very possible the handicap is more like 75%.
  • rmc 14y ago
    Yes 20% now. But think long term. If we get rid of the sexism then there will be more women in tech. There is a shortage of programmers, so we increasing women increases possible workforce, good for companies.
• gdubs 14y ago
  Interesting and well-written article, but one big problem: why throw in the Siri abortion thing? It wasn't needed to legitimize the author's point, and if anything comes across as technically naive. While Siri contains easter eggs that were manually added by programmers, the vast majority of searches would have to be algorithmic. Siri fails to find an answer to many basic queries, so to say that the lack of a response to 'where can I get an abortion?' is due to a lack of insight on the part of 'male programmers' is specious.
  • nextstep 14y ago
    Yeah, I agree. The results Siri returns are from Google or WolframAlpha, so a lack of information on one subject is not necessarily Apple's oversight. I think that the abortion-directions issue was later attributed to Google's SafeSearch filter.
    • rada 14y ago
      Siri uses Google by default. I just searched google local for "abortion", and Planned Parenthood was in fact listed. If SafeSearch filter is turned on, then it should not be finding prostitution providers either.
      • gdubs 14y ago
        Google search results are vastly different these days depending on who (or what) is searching. My guess is that 'who is searching' in this case is a box in a datacenter, somewhere in the midwest.
  • adolph 14y ago
    I agree with you and think it would be interesting to take a look at the world-view presented by the easter eggs or other special case affordances that exist and how they affect the folks who use the software.
• stfu 14y ago
  These "I'm shocked, outraged, sick to my stomach." postings make me always a bit uncomfortable. It seems to me that there are two ways one can approach this subject. On to proclaim that these are intentional acts of portraying females in a negative light and keeping them out of the tech industry. The other, that these are just a bunch of nerds, trying (and in large parts failing) to make coding something "oool" or a "manly" thing to do. As always the interpretation of these things is to a certain degree based on the personal frame one puts these events in a context with.
  • hej 14y ago
    I'm not sure how that makes it better. The consequences are the same.
  • cgh 14y ago
    Or, young males (I am male but no longer so young) are just generally oblivious when it comes to empathizing with others, particularly women. Blame testosterone. I believe the problem can be curbed by companies that watch out for this sort of thing, but you'll always have a certain unpleasant minority of "boys being boys".
  • whateverer 14y ago
    > It seems to me that there are two ways one can approach this subject. On to proclaim that these are intentional acts of portraying females in a negative light and keeping them out of the tech industry. I'm not sure I've actually seen this interpretation being presented here or anywhere else (though I veer off blog comments, they are sometimes good, but not worth the risk of reading the Facebook-quality ones). I think it's pretty well recognized that this is the product of both immaturity and stubborn ignorance, which makes it acceptable for too many folks in this industry to just trample over women nonchalantly with their attitudes and ``jokes''.
  • showerst 14y ago
    Here's the thing - It doesn't matter. If you run {startup X}, and your business guy puts out a presentation with women in bikinis that makes one of your female employees uncomfortable, and you don't do something about it immediately, she has a potential sexual harassment claim that is going to cost {startup X} _years_ worth of funding in legal fees and damages. The "oh {business guy} is just a bit awkward and didn't know any better" defense is NOT going to go far in court. If you thought some piece of software had a chance of failing and costing you millions of dollars and hundreds of hours of distraction, wouldn't you do _everything_ possible to fix it? Legal policy needs to be treated the same way.
• Lewisham 14y ago
  What I find particularly disconcerting about this Van Horn story is not that he wanted to present it (which is terrible in and of itself), but that this guy is 28, went through Digg (who never struck me as a company of idiots), already presented a sexist presentation, and still appears at SXSW either by invitation of him or Path. Why would Path or SXSW allow it? Did he not practice this presentation at Path before heading out? Was this thought to be acceptable by everyone at that company? He sounded to me like some tragic Van Wilder-esque figure trying to clutch on to those college good times forever. What is somewhat frustrating about all this stuff is that, while brogrammers or hipsters or whatever Bay Area-clique is in this month, can be targets of derision, the Valley is actually diversifying its personality structure, if not its sex. It's refreshing to see people that have different lifestyles to the geek stereotype, and it's broadening the appeal of these companies. It's getting easier and easier to sell Computer Science as a career to male undergraduates, because they're seeing that there are people just like them higher up. It's very annoying that those same higher ups are screwing up female motivation.
  • ojbyrne 14y ago
    Matt arrived at digg in 2007 if I recall correctly. At that point the culture was being reshaped into what is described in the article. Also lots of women were hired - young, attractive women. And we all know how that worked out. The reason why this culture persists is because people are rewarded for promulgating it. Matt is a VP at Path.
    • sfrench 14y ago
      Owen, I think your memory is a little fuzzy on this. If you recall, we overlapped for a few months in 2007 before you left, and the "lots of women" you describe just weren't there.
      • ojbyrne 14y ago
        Fair enough. The thing about women was actually something I was told happened after I left. Will edit the comment. Edit: sorry I missed the edit window.
• showerst 14y ago
  Do these companies not have HR departments? Occasionally idiotic things slip out from employees at bigCo's too, but they're swiftly dealt with. (Which is not to say that there aren't plenty of examples of hideous sexism at big companies, but I haven't ever had a job that didn't present a very clear sexual harassment policy on the first day.) I'd have to think that the very words "uncomfortable work environment" would strike fear into the hearts of any investors, far more than any competitive threats.
  • flamingbuffalo 14y ago
    also, don't they have marketing teams that might want to protect an image they work so hard to build.
  • base698 14y ago
    Of course they don't, they're a fucking startup. They don't have pointy haired bosses or 900 page corporate manuals outlining when it's OK to take bathroom breaks.
    • showerst 14y ago
      That's _entirely_ different from "If you do anything that will make anyone of {these protected classes} uncomfortable by saying/doing something relating to {their protected class} membership, we could be sued for hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, and you will be disciplined". HR lawsuits are a _huge_ risk, _especially_ for a small company, it seems like a no brainer for people smart enough to run an internet company not to know that a piece of paper and a clear set of instructions, and dealing with this stuff appropriately could save them millions down the road.
      • krakensden 14y ago
        There's not enough women for people to worry about it.
      • eli 14y ago
        I agree with you, but set aside the risk of a lawsuit. Creating an office environment where some people feel uncomfortable or bullied is just wrong. It's also bad for business.
• RandallBrown 14y ago
  The brogrammer meme is JUST A JOKE! It's the very opposite of a stereotypical programmer. It's simply taking a stereotype, flipping it around, and poking fun at it. Instead of being disgusted by jokes about nudie calendars, do something about it. Go give your own presentation. Recruit more women at your company. Turn the boys club into an everyone club. I'm not saying that everything people are doing is okay, I'm just saying that I think there are more productive ways of dealing with it than being offended.
  • kmfrk 14y ago
    I think the article conflated brogramming and misogyny in Silicon Valley. The former isn't necessarily bad as could be seen in the hilarious Twilio presentation. Misogyny is not funny, and it wasn't a part of the Twilio joke - at what I recall of it - as most of it focused on what makes for an annoying programmer. Some misogynists have appropriated the brogramming meme, but it is not an excuse for misogyny. Misogyny is not funny, regardless what the pretense of it is. "It's just a joke" is straight out of the misogyny flow chart. People are doing "more productive things than being offended" by writing this article and discussing the topic maturely in the comments in places like Hacker News.
  • jsavimbi 14y ago
    > The brogrammer meme is JUST A JOKE! No, it's an inside joke. There's a big difference there.
    • theorique 14y ago
      There's a certain irony and distance about it, though. My read of the brogrammer meme is laughing at the concept that frat boys and meathead "bros" can write code. It's often manifested as smart guys concealing their brains in a fog of conscious, ironic boneheadedness. The problem is when it crosses the line and becomes a fad to follow, or actually alienating to women in the profession.
      • jsavimbi 14y ago
        > laughing at the concept that frat boys and meathead "bros" can write code. More of a reality than a concept.
• fab13n 14y ago
  > To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is insanity. This is very PC, but BS nonetheless. At the stage when people can be profitably hired by start-ups, the male/female ratio is nowhere near 50% among technical candidates. I'm not saying that frat culture isn't harmful, nor would I dare to guess why women are underrepresented among development professionals; but defending a thesis with such grossly false assertions can only harm it.
  • RandallBrown 14y ago
    there are a hell of a lot more girls in frat culture than there are in programmer culture.
    • aspir 14y ago
      The problem is that you're trying to link a recreational culture predominantly consisting of 18-22 year olds with a degree of affluence to that of a lifelong trade career. They just aren't compatible. No one will ever list "10 years of social experience" on a cover letter or resume. It would be absurd. It's equally absurd to view these two cultures in the same light, or to make one more like the other.
  • dsr_ 14y ago
    I would dare to guess that women are underrepresented among developers PRECISELY because of this culture and the underlying assumptions and attitudes. Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis, which is the foundation of programming. If you don't have parity in your pool of candidates, there's a cause, and it's probably social. Nursing and teaching used to be men's work. Women weren't thought to be capable of it. Too weak. Too sensitive. Too illogical. Women aren't going into software development? Then there's a problem. Don't be part of it.
    • othermaciej 14y ago
      > Nursing and teaching used to be men's work. Women weren't thought to be capable of it. Too weak. Too sensitive. Too illogical. Do you have any citations for that? My impression is that nursing and teaching were considered women's work before they even existed as distinct professions. Nursing was originally done by women's religious orders, and was founded in its modern form by a woman, Florence Nightingale. And teaching was open to women in America since at least colonial times. Better examples might be law and medicine, high-status professions that were once all-male but now are considerably more gender-balanced than software development. I don't know the reason for the disparity, but I doubt it's because software engineers on average act more fratty than lawyers.
• eli_awry 14y ago
  This problem starts early, too - in my undergrad institution, many of the lectures and programming assignments taught OOP with examples employing beer and women-as-objects-of-seduction. The lecturers - not just TAs, but also adjuncts - would go out drinking with guys in the class from their old frats while ( I was alerted ) speculating as to how I got into Algorithms by sleeping with the professor. TAs discussed with guy students which of the female profs were 'bang-able' and which 'needed to be laid' so someone would 'have to take one for the team.' No wonder these same people think this behavior is acceptable once they enter the workforce. They're getting it from authority figures from day one. I never experienced anything like this in any other department at uni.
  • ovi256 14y ago
    >... discussed with guy students which of the female profs were 'bang-able' and which 'needed to be laid' so someone would 'have to take one for the team.' That's just fratboy behaviour. It doesn't have anything to do with the class or the department itself. It goes the other way often enough as well.
    • eli_awry 14y ago
      This was by a grad TA (a school employee) in a public forum. The one female professor who expressed any concern was told basically to stop. If it was just students, that would be one thing. This kid continued to be employed by the department.
    • ceol 14y ago
      "That's just fratboy behavior" and "It goes the other way" aren't excuses. Certainly not when women are severely underrepresented in the tech industry.
  • yalurker 14y ago
    Account created 45 minutes ago, to post a wildly unlikely and almost certainly embellished if not entirely fictitious anecdote. What is it about sexism on HN that brings out every troll, sock puppet, white knight, astroturfer, and any other internet message board cliche? The most sexist thing I've ever heard in a decade of real world work and interactions in the software industry can't hold a candle to what anonymous internet posters apparently see on a daily basis.
• codesuela 14y ago
  I find this whole brogrammer phenomenon ridiculous. It seems that it was a joke but now people start taking this stuff serious. I feel really embarrassed for people who describe themselves as brogrammers
  • RandallBrown 14y ago
    I don't think anyone seriously describes themselves as a brogrammer. It's all a big joke that some people just don't get.
    • Alex3917 14y ago
      "It's all a big joke that some people just don't get." You could say the same thing about hipsters, but they are still a real part of the culture.
  • burgerbrain 14y ago
    I am not so quick to blame the people who call themselves that. Sure, some 'brogrammers' are sexist pigs who lack self awareness, but I get a strong feeling that the majority of them are just regular smoes who are looking to avoid the alternative programmer stereotype that is thrust upon them by society at large: 'doesn't shower, and likes science fiction a bit too much'.
    • codesuela 14y ago
      yes I get that but how about going to gym, being groomed and well dressed and well versed WITHOUT conforming to the Bro stereotype, you know...like a INDIVIDUAL It's not like you have the choice between being a BROgrammer or a PROgrammer. You can also be an Software Engineer that doesn't conform to either stereotypes or "subcultures" if you would call it that. People who call themselves brogrammes seem to lack the creativity to adopt a personal style that combines the best of both worlds: a smart, well dressed individual that enjoys working out without making a big fuss about it. /rant
      • 14y ago
• dipthegeezer 14y ago
  Well you still have job adverts from big boys like twitter saying 'responsible enjoyment of beer' as a prerequisite. https://twitter.com/jobs/positions?jvi=ooE7VfwO,Job https://twitter.com/jobs/positions?jvi=ooE7VfwO,Job If that's not appealing to the frat boy crowd then I don't know what is. Not to mention the fact that a lot of people don't actually drink ( I know hard to believe! ), or have a life that doesn't involve drinking all the time. As someone who's been there and got the T-shirt I get jaded when I see things like this. A lot of the best coders are past the 'frat boy' stage and prefer a mature working environment when they see things like this it sends alarm bells ringing.
  • vectorpush 14y ago
    What is sexist about 'responsible enjoyment of beer'? For the record, I agree that sexism is a huge problem in tech but plenty of women enjoy beer and it's pretty ridiculous to suggest that any mention of beer is an automatic appeal to men.
    • cynest 14y ago
      It implies that a drinking culture is important within the company. This tends to appeal to "bros" moreso than other groups and can be a major turnoff to most others.
  • theorique 14y ago
    There's a radical difference between a grown up workplace that sips a couple of high quality microbrews at Friday happy hour (my most recent workplace), and a frat house doing keg stands. And there's a lot of room in between the extremes. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a social culture that enjoys a few beers after a hard day of work. On the contrary, it builds bonds between co-workers and leads to better work product.
    • EvilTerran 14y ago
      "a grown up workplace that sips a couple of high quality microbrews at Friday happy hour" is exactly what I think of when I see the phrase "responsible enjoyment of beer". "The frat boy crowd" approach is completely different -- irresponsible enjoyment of being drunk; the beer is incidental.
• ebbv 14y ago
  Not that fucking Siri canard again. It was debunked repeatedly. The reason Planned Parenthood wasn't being found by the person's query is they were looking for "abortion provider" or something along those lines and Planned Parenthood wasn't listing itself under those terms. It had NOTHING to do with sexism on the part of the developers. Shame on the author.
  • rmc 14y ago
    I don't know of the specifics, bit I would have also assumed that since abortion is a slightly controversial issue now, that Apple blocked it. They don't want porn on app store, so I assumed that they blocked abortion providers aswell. The other reason I find this "siri sexism" theory hard to believe is how the OP phrased the complaint. "... the male programmers didnt think to include abortion ...". Does the OP really think that everything in Siri is hand entered? That a bunch of (men) sat around and wrote out everything that Siri could be asked? The OP knows about search engines right?!
    • ebbv 14y ago
      They didn't block it. The actual problem was identified and it was that the person throwing a fit was searching for terms that Planned Parenthood didn't list themselves under. There was no action on Apple's part, deliberate or otherwise, that caused it.
      • rmc 14y ago
        Yeah that makes sense. When I first heard about the "scandal", I presumed it was Apple erring on the side of caution and banning porn and abortions.
  • rada 14y ago
    I just searched google local for "abortion provider", and Planned Parenthood was in fact listed.
• base698 14y ago
  This is not sexism--it's bad taste. A marketing guy that can only use sex to sell sucks as a marketing guy and I'd expect more people to jump on that aspect of the story. (I realize I'm probably jumping the gun, and he could have instances of marketing brilliance). What Sqoot did was kind of sexist--implying that women were only good for getting beer. What most of these other instances have been are just bad taste.
  • rmc 14y ago
    There is no one commonly agreed-upon definition of sexism. Also there is degrees of sexism. From "We don't hire women" to subtley making it uncomfortable for female employees to actual gender equality. Things are not Black or White. There is a continuum between "Saudi Arabia style" and gender equality. (This applies to most -isms aswell)
• fooooobar 14y ago
  How often do speeches like this actually happen? My guess would be that it's pretty low, but that people have nothing better to blog about, so I have hear about it like it's an epidemic. Are there any real statistics?
• mattvanhorn 14y ago
  Just want to say - I am not that Matt Van Horn. (I've met him, though, and I think the article is intentionally trying to show him in the worst possible light to drive more page views.)
  • mindrag 14y ago
    So your name is Matt Van Horn, but you are not the Matt Van Horn from the article, but you've met him and he's actually a pretty good guy? That is some coincidence right there. Regardless of what kind of person he is, the presentation he gave was in poor taste and deserves to be ridiculed. Attacking the writer or publication for wanting to "drive more page views" doesn't change the fact that he gave a sexist presentation.
    • mattvanhorn 14y ago
      Yeah - the coincidence is how I know him. me: http://mattvanhorn.com http://mattvanhorn.com him: http://mattvh.com http://mattvh.com Also, I did not see the presentation, so I can't comment on it firsthand, but as portrayed it looks to be in pretty bad taste. I don't know Matt that well, mostly through social media, but I can say that he's never come across as a knuckle-dragging misogynist. So ridiculing the presentation is fair, but trying to make him the face of the problem that is very widespread in the industry seems a bit unfair. (Not to mention this is all going to come up in Google searches for me, a programmer (not brogrammer) who lives and works in the bay area as well. /selfinterest )
• ceol 14y ago
  > At the startup-focused Grow Conference in 2011, his presentation included bikini-girl images from his calendar. He prefaced the slides with a laughing, "I'm sorry for being sexist. I apologize in advance," I read this a lot on reddit. Someone will preface their comment with "I'm going to hell for this" or "Apologies in advance" as if that's supposed to excuse it. I get the feeling it's because these people don't see themselves as ____ist, so when they do something ____ist it's "just a joke" or "I'm not serious!" I think for us to get rid of this culture, we need to make these people realize they're actually sexist. They're not a nice guy making a sexist joke; they're a sexist guy making a sexist joke, and this is how everyone sees them.
  • skore 14y ago
    I agree with you to a degree, but you simply can't put it as strong as you did. It is absolutely possible to make a joke that is understood as sexist without being one yourself. That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by. Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend others. Whether or not that person really does appreciate the extent to which their comment can be hurtful and whether or not they really are sexist (to whatever degree) is a different matter altogether. Filtering your output because of others and your true conviction are two different things and you're not doing anybody a favor by forcing a causality here.
    • ceol 14y ago
      > That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by. Would you agree there's a difference between a comedian telling a sexist joke and a respected speaker at a tech conference telling a sexist joke? > Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend others. However, they didn't stop from making the comment, so I'd say it's even worse: They know what they said is offensive but don't care. > Filtering your output because of others and your true conviction are two different things and you're not doing anybody a favor by forcing a causality here. I'm not forcing any causality. If you tell sexist jokes, it's not a stretch for people to assume you're sexist. But all too often we don't; we write it off as "just a joke" because the person did a slight nod to their offensiveness. Instead, we should take it the other way and stop excusing this behavior. It does nothing but alienate women.
• AdamFernandez 14y ago
  What's interesting about the brogramming phenomenon is it seems less about programming, and more about how to be what most would consider a pompous idiot (I am being kind with that term, another would be 'd* bag'), who just so happens to program. The implication here is that programming is not cool unless you are a brogrammer. I think this shows a lack of understanding or awareness about the basic philosophy of programming (see: pompous idiot).
• bherms 14y ago
  I don't think this is really a Silicon Valley problem so much as it's a society problem in general. We technophiles are just much more inclined to bitch about it on the internet.
• batista 14y ago
  TL;DR; A guy made some jokes anybody would fine perfectly acceptable (if not ho-hum), and a few tight-arsed politically correct prudes walked out as if he was citing from the Main Kampf, in order to show how anti-sexist they are. Political correctness: or why should the far right monopolize all the moralizing, fear of sexual references and plain old dirty jokes? Progressive people can be prudish squares too. Oh: and those kind of jokes can be blamed for not many women pursuing a programming career. Like, you know, how video games make kids violent, and lawyer jokes make people not follow a lawyer career...
  • frankwiles 14y ago
    "A guy made some jokes anybody would fine perfectly acceptable" I don't find those jokes "perfectly acceptable", not even close.
    • batista 14y ago
      Yes, I can see how a joking mention that "I secured a position in a company buy sending the cofounders nude pictures" can be considered controversial and unacceptable... in rural Utah, that is. Comedians, from Lenny Bruce to Carlin have used far more controversial stuff --are we, tech people as a group more backwards than the 60's and 70's people that persecuted them? (That he wasn't a comedian is not a reason to not allow the guy his joke. Or, are there levels of humor only allowable to comedians? I'd take my conferences with any grain of humor one would like to put in them, thank you). Seriously (or maybe not), humor has to be judged for what it is, not as a manifesto or an agenda. For example, your "Proposal to make unittest2 more accurate". People could take offense to that, especially if it was presented at a conference "what's with the profanity", "where's his professionalism" etc. You would consider that justified?
      • deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      • frankwiles 14y ago
        Sorry didn't see this got a reply until now. I hear what you're saying and being a big Carlin fan I agree that "any subject" can be made funny, it's the intentions behind the words, etc. Perhaps it's a double standard on my part, but the sexism in our industry is poisonous to our future and I think we would all be better off if we considered these topics to simply be off limits. As for PEP712, while I wouldn't present it at a conference, I would be ok with whatever flack I received due to using the first two letters of a profane word. However, I would also expect to be spit roasted online and hopefully in person if the proposal was to pop up a nude porn pic if all of the tests passed.
• tomx 14y ago
  How big is this problem? A number or percentage of programmers would help to quantify things. Are all these blog posts about 10 programmers, 10% of programmers?...
• ahalan 14y ago
  "Adding Value as a Non-Technical No Talent Ass-Clown." haha, I love this guy
• molsongolden 14y ago
  Using bikini shots in a presentation is over the top but the rest of the article seems a bit petty.
• droithomme 14y ago
  All right, let me get this straight. So this guy gives a speech criticizing gang bang interviews, and people walked out because they don't like the term "gang bang". Or is it because they are so addicted to gang bang interviews that they aren't willing to give them up and are offended by anyone criticizing the practice. I also despise gang bang interviews. There is no advantage to them and they should be stopped. I also admire this guy for having the balls to come up with the disparaging and offensive term "gang bang interviews", because it does a great job of reframing the discussion about this practice. I will definitely start referring to them as "gang bang interviews" myself when mocking the practice. Cheers!
  • MBlume 14y ago
    I really hope you're just trolling, I hope no one here is actually this obtuse. But just in case... Referring to them as "gang bang interviews": * implies an equivalence between having several people take it in turns to overpower and rape you, and having several people take it in turns to ask you questions * brings up the topic of rape in a context where people are expected to laugh * brings up the topic of rape for no good reason Can you really not see how this would create an unpleasant experience for someone (ie most women) who's been taught since age 12 to fear the possibility of being raped at any moment? Can you not see how this would create a potentially triggering experience, one which would wipe out any benefit from attending the conference, for an assault survivor?
    • droithomme 14y ago
      Not trolling and I take exception to the implication that my point is so worthless. There are many parallels. As you point out the interviewee cornered in a room and find themselves attacked by one person after another. Most of the interviewers have the agenda to discredit and intimidate the interviewers whose looks or ethnicity they just don't like. If the person "looks cool" though then they go easy. It's hostile and confrontational and the interviewer is expected to take the abuse and not fight back or they are not demonstrating teamwork, where teamwork in many of these companies means being a passive beta that accepts abuse. Very different from talking one on one and having a chance to document one's competency. Gang bang interviews are a form of violence, they are wrong, and they should be stopped. No one should defend gang bang interviews in tech. Or in any other fields, but gang bang interviews are prevalent in tech mostly, I've never seen the practice in any other field.
• slantyyz 14y ago
  Being a little too old to be a brogrammer (heck, I still remember when the notion of casual workdays was a novelty), I have a simple rule that I follow: "If you're on the clock, act like it." That typically means no inappropriate jokes/comments or profanity in workplace communications (email, conversation, slide decks, etc.), dressing appropriately (i.e., casual at work, but not too casual, dressing up for meeting with third parties), etc. This idea might be considered "old school" here on HN, but it has kept me out of trouble for a long time, and I'm sure it could work just as well for 'brogrammers' as well. I know that the tech workplace culture is quite relaxed about many types of borderline inappropriate behaviours, but to use another clichéd rule, "just because you can doesn't mean you should".
  • MartinCron 14y ago
    I feel the same way, and have instructed people to "be as edgy and offensive as you want on your own time". This isn't really a culture/society thing. This is a workplace/professionalism thing.
• newobj 14y ago
  Well crying about a certain personality or type of person crowding into your formerly insular world is hardly going to accomplish anything. The context is a competitive business landscape so let the competition's results sort it all out.
• nraynaud 14y ago
  Let's pound on programmers, they're an easier target than the bankers.
• deleted 14y ago
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• byrneseyeview 14y ago
  I find it fascinating that being offended entitles people to extra credibility and lower standards of proof. It would be interesting to imagine a world being offended made you less credible, and forced you to have higher standards of proof. (Incidentally, can anyone think of a case where you've smacked your head and said "Wow! If only I'd given more credence to the people who are most emotional about this stuff, I would have made objectively better decisions!") I'm pretty bored of bro culture in general, and startup bro-culture in particular, but the dialogue here seems broken.
• pasbesoin 14y ago
  Such people are scum. And, everyone has an individual decision to make whether to associate with them -- and thereby enable them -- or not. Here's the other thing to consider: They are not just sexist. They are classic users/abusers. And that "user" attitude you see them displaying, and perhaps manifesting (though there's probably a fair amount of braggadocio as opposed to effective execution) towards women? Even as a guy, they'll manifest it towards you -- in a second, if they see an advantage. In short, these are not pleasant people to deal with. My individual choice, enhanced by a few learning experiences, is to avoid getting involved with them -- in any fashion -- in the first place. And to the potential employer I'll say that, yes, for me this is a non-negotiable "walking point".
• jgn 14y ago
  I've been a "nice guy" my whole life, and sometimes it's socially detrimental (read: being too nice to girls that were hoping I'd be more than nice). At some level, I find the idea of brogramming attractive. Yes, I said it, and I know how awful that is. But consider that some very nerdy, possibly more insecure guys could look at this culture and decide they want to be part of it. They get to maintain their nerdiness and love of coding while making social changes that elevate them, at least in their mind. I've never wanted to join a frat because they all seemed like idiots, but I can't say I haven't been jealous of them for the girls that seem to hang around. All that being said, do you understand what I'm getting at? No, I don't wish for hipster sunglasses and drunken weekends. I am what I am, and typically that means I'm too shy and/or nice to girls for my own good. But at some level, the brogrammer culture looks cool to a guy like me. I hope that makes sense and adds something to this discussion, it seems like most people are a bit older here and only approach it from that perspective.
  • MartinCron 14y ago
    I'm not saying this is happening to you, but for the longest time, I had this idea in my head "I'm nice, women don't find me attractive, therefore women don't find nice guys attractive. Look at that guy over there, he's an jerk to everyone and women love him. WTF?" It's easy conclusion to come to, but it's a dangerous logical fallacy that can cause you to hyper-focus on the wrong thing. Different women find different things attractive, but one thing that is almost universally unattractive is desperation and a lack of confidence.
• tatsuke95 14y ago
  Sqoot and Geeklist may or not be sexist. If you think they are, respond accordingly by not applying for work with them, not using their products or actively campaigning against them. But don't assume that they're not allowed to be "sexist" (in quotations because what they've done isn't really "sexist", more like immature). They can run their companies any way they choose, within the laws of the land. They are under no obligation to cater to women.
  • MartinCron 14y ago
    They can run their companies any way they choose, within the laws of the land. The laws of the land are pretty clear about creating hostile work environments.
• conorwade 14y ago
  I was reading this article with an open mind until the SIRI issue was brought up. This is because the groups involved were not listing themselves as abortion providers, but as family planning clinics. Siri can't read minds (yet!). It makes me question the motivation behind the article. I think everyone realizes that there are far too few women in technology. The thing is "brogrammers" are not at fault here. Girls being pushed a particular way in school is. It is a larger cultural issue. I will be the first to say that 'brogrammers' or whatever seem a little like dumbasses, but people need to stop taking themselves so seriously and get a sense of humor, aswell. In my experience females in tech are celebrated. This to me isn't a gender related issue, but a small general issue being blown out of proportion.
• jwwest 14y ago
  How much of this is a real issue versus something that is so incredibly annoying that any trace of it feels big? I haven't met a single 'brogrammer' in my professional life yet... Let the idiots filter themselves out. Obviously they love attention or they wouldn't be doing these things. No amount of negative press on Mother Jones will fix that. The only way is to make it personal: if you encounter this behavior personally, say something. That being said, our society as a whole is pretty sexist too. I don't agree with it, but subcultures tend to reflect at least some elements of the encompassing culture. Any male dominated field (think about truck driving or construction) will inevitably have this problem I'm sure. Speaking of truck driving and construction, you don't hear much from those fields about needed more women in those roles. I truly wonder why that is.
• cyborg 14y ago
  I'm the shirtless guy in the top-left photo. I feel pretty bummed that something we did to parody the ridiculous 'brogrammer' movement was used in this context : (
  • unreal37 14y ago
    It's a ridiculous article leaping to ridiculous conclusions. Don't be too bummed.
• BasDirks 14y ago
  sexists should be ostracised, and women allowed to hack in peace.
• moocow01 14y ago
  Path... Uninstalled. If this is how there "executives" think, I'm sure they could care less about the ethical use and protection of user data.
  • Drbble 14y ago
    Did you miss the part where Path was caught hacking users phones to steal their addressbooks?
    • moocow01 14y ago
      I did miss that one - I guess I uninstalled too late but that paints a pretty complete picture of the company.
• ojbyrne 14y ago
  Two things: First of all, this isn't programmer culture, it's executive culture. MVH got to the position he is in because his world view matchs the world view of executives and VCs in the industry. Second, I'm amazed that people can be critical of 'bro' culture in this article, but when Peter Theil's course material appeared here, people were supportive of it, even though it was essentially an intellectual argument that this is the type of culture you want to promote at a startup.
• vectorpush 14y ago
  What sickens me most is that these people don't believe they're wrong. I won't generalize every individual who's ever made a stupid comment, but I can tell you anecdotally that these 'brogrammers' resent being called out for sexist remarks and turn to like-minded cliques where acceptable discourse includes long-winded rants regarding the harrowing campaign of persecution set upon them by the likes of 'liberal whiteknights' and 'feminazi bitches'. These guys aren't actively conspiring to exclude women from tech (in fact, they tend to jump at any superficial opportunity to demonstrate the opposite), but they're angry about being called sexist and they really don't want to capitulate to the suggestion that their behavior merits serious adjustment (which is not surprising considering the correlation of ego with 'brogrammer'). The surplus of cash and minor acclaim only emboldens their resolve; there is a subconscious belief that their financial success has conferred the wisdom to authoritatively determine the appropriate bounds of sexual commentary for a professional setting and anyone who can't deal with sexist bullshit can just get the fuck outta tech because the startup is king and sensitive women (and men) just can't handle the heat of 60 hour weeks spent reclined in front of a widescreen LCD. These chauvinistic kids really need a wake up call, but frankly, I fear the money is just too good for them to ever really care.
  • srconstantin 14y ago
    I went to school with these guys. I don't have a lot of sympathy for them, but I do have a little. They did find a place in the sun. Right now their skills match what the market wants. So, like everyone else, they're going to remake the workplace in their own image. Working there sounds like it would be acutely unpleasant, but from what I understand, it's basically the same as a big chunk of finance culture. When tech stops being faddish, those people will go back to finance (which is so demonized anyway that Mother Jones doesn't report on what it's like to be a woman in finance).
• option_greek 14y ago
  It's interesting that these 'sexism' articles draw huge number of comments. Usually that would mean there are two strong sides arguing. But since they are almost always one sided, I don't see the reason for this much of 'attention'. Whats the point in arguing, when there is no one to argue with...
  • droithomme 14y ago
    The same guys ranting in here about how feminist they are are also in other threads posting about how unprofessional people are who work 8 hrs and leave at 5 to go to their kid's soccer practice.
    • silassliph 14y ago
      Yes, seeing how many times you can use the word "misogyny" in a sentence does seem to be the new performance art.
  • koeselitz 14y ago
    It seems like there are a lot of differences of opinion on this page, aren't there? The fact that hardly anybody is ever going to say they're in favor of sexism doesn't mean there isn't any disagreement, or that there isn't anything to talk about. Clearly a lot of people think this is an incredibly important issue for the community, and a lot of other people believe it's a distraction that at worst is hurting a lot of people through an unfair application of political correctness.
• redthrowaway 14y ago
  My problem with Van Horne's presentation is not that it was sexist or offensive, which it was, but rather that he made himself (and path) look like frat boy douchetards. Here's the VP of Business Development for a company valued at $250MM, and he acts like a child. The sexism, to me, is less repugnant than the notion that an idiot like this would have such a high degree of authority in such a highly-valued company.
• wtracy 14y ago
  The term "hogrammer" is being used to justify the term "brogrammer"? That term seems ridiculously offensive in and of itself.
• jongraehl 14y ago
  I personally wouldn't be looking for faux-bro culture in a startup, but you should expect people who have common goals+values and move/talk/dress alike to bond. This has value (sure, you still want diversity in thinking/problem solving - but in culture? not directly helpful). So, hiring or soliciting hires on the basis of cultural compatibility, where legal, is just a tradeoff. You lose by turning off or dismissing part of the total pool, but if the culture is good, you get more out of those who are compatible with it. Copying the latest fad culture is counterproductive. The companies piling on without any authenticity are idiotic. They'll end up with dregs pretty soon if they all keep going to the bro well (which I assumed was ironically intended - who knows any sincere bros?) Of course, ironic culture is real (ironic) culture.
• cafard 14y ago
  As an old balding guy working for an East Coast non-profit, I have to ask: how much of this goes on? Is there enough to be a problem, or is this just a meme that has caught a lot of people's attention, and will disappear once we lose interest and get excited in something else?
• rudin 14y ago
  If you look past the horrible sexism I see an actually different undercurrent going on here. The clash of cultures is not between these "brogrammers" and women, but between brogrammers and "geek culture". Geek culture has for various reasons dominated the technology sector for the last couple of decades however the risk and reward situation involved in startups has been attracting a different type of crowd, the brogrammers. The geek culturists feel threatened by this new crowd and so attack them by accusing them of sexism (a valid criticism) as it goes against one of the core geek tenets of tolerance towards others. I on the other hand, view the inclusion of different subcultures in the tech industry, regardless of how they act, to be a positive thing. I hope more subcultures will come along which will continue to break up the dominant stereotypes in the tech industry (and hopefully address the gender imbalance at some stage ... bring on the sisgrammers!).
• kanchax 14y ago
  What about women who feel empowered by being admired? Who sincerely are much more numerous than those shouting few defaming a really common thing, appreciating women. Yes, there are women who feel badly when they are not admired for their beauty. That said, Why should we care about those guys losing 50% (or not) potential employees. The only reason I see is those holier-than-thou people just want to impose their view on you. If those views are better the guys will choose them. With our current social decorum, I guess they will. I love freedom of speech. I personally would have not apologized in the position of Path but I would also not have done what they did in the first place. Treating women that way is not the right way get to them in my circles. I really don't see where the complaint on Geeklist came from. What about all those music clips/GoDaddy commercial? It's such a big fuss to me because I read it on HN. I got to stop reading these decorum stories and be more productive.