4 ms·

While I agree with the sentiment, please remember that actually buying BTC directly and doing self-custody is still an option.

fancyfredbot 3y ago
So much more hassle though. Nobody's going to bother with that now - what's the point?
- treyd 3y ago
  UX with hardware wallets (which you can get for like $60) is pretty decent these days and it eliminates a lot of stress in the workflows you typically use. There's still a huge room for improvement with seedphrase backup and "social recovery", but it's easier now than it's been in the past.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    How does the average person back these up in a secure, yet durable way that lasts decades and can easily be discovered by (and only by) their ultimate heirs?
    - akgoel 3y ago
      Passphrase in a bank safe deposit box.
    - jekrb 3y ago
      I think everyone will have different behavior sec for their funds, with the options now ranging from simply committing a 12 or 24 word seed phrase to memory and buying ETF shares. There is shamir secret splitting, multisig, MPC, secure enclaves with biometerics, etc... There will be apps like Fuse wallet: https://www.fusewallet.com/ https://www.fusewallet.com/ There will be phones like Saga: https://solanamobile.com/hardware https://solanamobile.com/hardware I think how one handles their wallets will be much like how people make their espressos. Some will just stick k-cup in a machine and hit a button, others will become full-blown coffee enthusiasts that carefully measure their beans, de-static their grinds, and extract for the exact right amount of time.
      - lxgr 3y ago
        > simply committing a 12 or 24 word seed phrase to memory That's absolutely out of the question for almost any human being, especially given the timeframes involved. > There will be phones like Saga [...] There will be apps like Fuse wallet: [...] Again, we're talking about a timeframe of decades. How many of these will even still boot up after that amount of time? None of these seem safe to just throw in a bank safe deposit box. > make their espressos. Some will just stick k-cup in a machine and hit a button I'm really not a coffee connoisseur by any meaning of the word, but even I know that what comes out of a k-cup machine is brewed coffee, not espresso.
        k12sosse 3y ago
        > I'm really not a coffee connoisseur by any meaning of the word, but even I know that what comes out of a k-cup machine is brewed coffee, not espresso. No, that's his passphrase
        jekrb 3y ago
        My point is there are thousands of ways to handle your wallets, I don't think there will be one average way. The ETF is probably the equivalent of this "espresso style" k-cup https://www.keurig.com/Beverages/Dark-Roast/Espresso-Style-Coffee/p/espresso-style-coffee-cafe-bustelo-k-cup#24_CT https://www.keurig.com/Beverages/Dark-Roast/Espresso-Style-C...
    - transcriptase 3y ago
      Same as anything else really: A sheet of paper and a safety deposit box. You die, your heir or executor takes the appropriate paperwork to the bank, and then they get the contents of the box.
      - lxgr 3y ago
        How many people even have a safety deposit box? Many banks don't offer them anymore, and in some countries they have a disturbing tendency of getting robbed, with absolutely no recourse for the depositors (since contents are usually unverified and uninsured).
        transcriptase 3y ago
        Then buy a large fire safe, bolt it to your floor inside a closet, and fill it with 10 lb barbell plates until it requires a forklift to move. If your threat model includes someone inside your home with power tools and you can’t trust a bank… you might want to consider moving.
        lxgr 3y ago
        Given that people probably don't arrange their life around the ability to safeguard physical assets, I think you've just given several good arguments against self-custody: Many people don't own a home. Not all of those that do want to expose themselves to the liability of storing valuables there. The safety situation between homes even within the US varies greatly, and even more so internationally. Banks with safety deposit boxes aren't ubiquitous. If it works for you, great! I'm just saying that you might be in the minority here.
        fragmede 3y ago
        That's cool. What do I do when I move every few years because I'm a renter and can't afford to own a home in this economy?
        transcriptase 3y ago
    - treyd 3y ago
      That's what the "social recovery" ideas are for. It's a framework for doing key management across multiple trusted parties under controlled conditions in the hypothetical case your primary keys are inaccessible. You could have your executor hold a key, for example.
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  I love this scenario. "Why is Bitcoin a great asset?" "Because its the future of currency! Its great and everyone will use it!" "Then why don't you just get it directly?" "Uh, its too much of a hassle. For me. A professional finance worker."
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  > Nobody's going to bother with that now - what's the point? This is actually a great comment that I think applies well to the crypto world as a whole, even if that wasn't your original intent.
  - fancyfredbot 3y ago
    I will own up to trolling slightly to draw attention to the fact that exhanging bitcoin as a digital currency is not something which would occur to most people who own it. The only thing most people will do with their bitcoin is exchange it for fiat.
    - tempestn 3y ago
      That and hodl it, hoping it'll someday be worth more.
- bob_malrey 3y ago
  But what’s the point of Bitcoin then? They might as well put anything in these ETFs and it’d be the same thing then: the flat rocks in my garden are limited in number and very scarce, wanna put some in an etf?
  - rkagerer 3y ago
    Maybe, but my rocks are better, faster, and more scalable! Frankly we could probably get our rock ETF's approved more quickly. Regardless of how you feel about Bitcoin, it's not (or shouldn't be) the SEC's place to play nanny and dictate the particular assets/commodities/etc. in which you're allowed to invest your money. Incidentally even one of SEC commissioners agrees https://www.sec.gov/news/statement/peirce-statement-spot-bitcoin-011023 https://www.sec.gov/news/statement/peirce-statement-spot-bit...
    - dovakin 3y ago
      Well as a matter of fact btc is none of these things compared to any other crypto, which are themselves not particularly any of these things. But I agree with the fact it’s not the SEC’s role to tell us the merit of btc. I do have some worries on the Tether scam still going on for example though, which has been manipulating BTC for years.
      - rvnx 3y ago
        No matter if it is a scam or not, at the end it worked. Similar to banks which don't have enough capital. Now Tether owns tons of money, and can buy treasuries that bring few % of interests, and these interests are not paid back to USDT holders. As a result, overtime, they'll be able to fill-in any potential gaps or money accidentally lost.
        teh_infallible 3y ago
        Impressive, isn’t it? They bootstrapped a stablecoin! Edit: spelling
  - 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rkagerer 3y ago
  It's not really that hard, and the tools are continually evolving to be more user friendly (e.g. Last year Trezor added hardware support to simplify Shamir backup). Of course the ability to hit "buy now" in the same marketplace you manage all your other investments is pretty low friction and I'm sure this decision will bring fresh investment out of the woodwork.
- houseatrielah 3y ago
  Save approx. 1% on fees annually is the point.
- miohtama 3y ago
  Everyone who does not have access to the US financial system will keep doing it. Which is 7/8B people on this planet.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    Are you missing some other somewhat relevant financial systems here by any chance? The EU (higher population than the US) has had Bitcoin ETFs for a while now.
- TheDudeMan 3y ago
  Your question is equivalent to asking the point of bitcoin (avoid centralization).
trompetenaccoun 3y ago
The mob always wins in the end, but I never understood why many on HN have been so cynical about Bitcoin. At least Satoshi tried, whoever they were. They gave a gift to the world, but it sadly got co-opted and taken over first by small-time grifters and now by the big boys at Wall Street. In hindsight it was probably bound to happen, because money buys influence and a casual decentralized group of coders can never win against banks and governments. Anyway, digital gold is still better than nothing. It's still an innovation as a store of value, even if the payments idea is basically history (some Bitcoin maxis just don't understand that yet). Also Bitcoin has inspired a whole ecosystem of other blockchains. If you want the original concept of a peer-to-peer electronic cash system, Monero is probably one of the best to check out currently. Governments are btw currently going after Monero, because unlike the common myth about Bitcoin, it actually enables anonymous payments - just like cash. And so of course we can't have that. Multiple exchanges already announced they were forced to delist XMR.
- loceng 3y ago
  It's only worth something if someone else values it vs. physical gold.
  - snapcaster 3y ago
    Of course, this is also true of physical gold though. If all non-industrial use of gold were to end the price would collapse
    - losteric 3y ago
      That's a tautology.... The aesthetic and industrial applications of gold are what makes it intrinsically valuable - that being the key distinction, and distinct from Bitcoin. If you ignore the useful aspects, of course it's no different from any useless thing.
  - sapphicsnail 3y ago
    Gold's value is mostly disconnected from it's utility. We've just decided it's valuable for a longer period of time so less people question it.
maxioatic 3y ago
But then I have to pay taxes on it. Time to full send my retirement accounts into these ETFs so I can retire early. /s Actually though I might consider allocating a tiny percentage (1-3%) to these. Seems like fairly low risk with enough upside, but who knows.
- siwatanejo 3y ago
  What do you mean? self-custodying BTC is still unrealized gains until you sell, so no tax either.
  - ghshephard 3y ago
    BTC ETF in in a 401K/IRA can be contributed, grow, or possibly be withdrawn tax-free depending on how you set it up. Coinbase reports your gains and you owe taxes on them. (Don't think Coinbase has an IRA/401K option for custody. Yet.)
  - maxioatic 3y ago
    I was referring to the capital gains tax you pay for selling BTC on an exchange. I was thinking specifically about Roth IRAs, where any gains are tax free, but a 401k or similar would work too.
- anonu 3y ago
  These are cash creates not in kind creates. So there is no escaping taxes. You will be paying capital gains just by holding spot Bitcoin ETFs Edit: after further research it appears that the cash create mechanism doesn't cause a tax event for shareholders as it does with mutual funds. See https://www.grayscale.com/blog/legal-topics/addressing-potential-tax-considerations-for-investors-in-spot-bitcoin-etfs https://www.grayscale.com/blog/legal-topics/addressing-poten... We will have to see how every Bitcoin ETF is structured. YMMV depending on this structure and how you get taxed.
  - tempestn 3y ago
    I think the parent is talking about buying the ETF inside a tax sheltered account.

fancyfredbot 3y ago

So much more hassle though. Nobody's going to bother with that now - what's the point?

treyd 3y ago
UX with hardware wallets (which you can get for like $60) is pretty decent these days and it eliminates a lot of stress in the workflows you typically use. There's still a huge room for improvement with seedphrase backup and "social recovery", but it's easier now than it's been in the past.
- lxgr 3y ago
  How does the average person back these up in a secure, yet durable way that lasts decades and can easily be discovered by (and only by) their ultimate heirs?
  - akgoel 3y ago
    Passphrase in a bank safe deposit box.
  - jekrb 3y ago
    I think everyone will have different behavior sec for their funds, with the options now ranging from simply committing a 12 or 24 word seed phrase to memory and buying ETF shares. There is shamir secret splitting, multisig, MPC, secure enclaves with biometerics, etc... There will be apps like Fuse wallet: https://www.fusewallet.com/ https://www.fusewallet.com/ There will be phones like Saga: https://solanamobile.com/hardware https://solanamobile.com/hardware I think how one handles their wallets will be much like how people make their espressos. Some will just stick k-cup in a machine and hit a button, others will become full-blown coffee enthusiasts that carefully measure their beans, de-static their grinds, and extract for the exact right amount of time.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      > simply committing a 12 or 24 word seed phrase to memory That's absolutely out of the question for almost any human being, especially given the timeframes involved. > There will be phones like Saga [...] There will be apps like Fuse wallet: [...] Again, we're talking about a timeframe of decades. How many of these will even still boot up after that amount of time? None of these seem safe to just throw in a bank safe deposit box. > make their espressos. Some will just stick k-cup in a machine and hit a button I'm really not a coffee connoisseur by any meaning of the word, but even I know that what comes out of a k-cup machine is brewed coffee, not espresso.
      - k12sosse 3y ago
        > I'm really not a coffee connoisseur by any meaning of the word, but even I know that what comes out of a k-cup machine is brewed coffee, not espresso. No, that's his passphrase
      - jekrb 3y ago
        My point is there are thousands of ways to handle your wallets, I don't think there will be one average way. The ETF is probably the equivalent of this "espresso style" k-cup https://www.keurig.com/Beverages/Dark-Roast/Espresso-Style-Coffee/p/espresso-style-coffee-cafe-bustelo-k-cup#24_CT https://www.keurig.com/Beverages/Dark-Roast/Espresso-Style-C...
  - transcriptase 3y ago
    Same as anything else really: A sheet of paper and a safety deposit box. You die, your heir or executor takes the appropriate paperwork to the bank, and then they get the contents of the box.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      How many people even have a safety deposit box? Many banks don't offer them anymore, and in some countries they have a disturbing tendency of getting robbed, with absolutely no recourse for the depositors (since contents are usually unverified and uninsured).
      - transcriptase 3y ago
        Then buy a large fire safe, bolt it to your floor inside a closet, and fill it with 10 lb barbell plates until it requires a forklift to move. If your threat model includes someone inside your home with power tools and you can’t trust a bank… you might want to consider moving.
        lxgr 3y ago
        Given that people probably don't arrange their life around the ability to safeguard physical assets, I think you've just given several good arguments against self-custody: Many people don't own a home. Not all of those that do want to expose themselves to the liability of storing valuables there. The safety situation between homes even within the US varies greatly, and even more so internationally. Banks with safety deposit boxes aren't ubiquitous. If it works for you, great! I'm just saying that you might be in the minority here.
        fragmede 3y ago
        That's cool. What do I do when I move every few years because I'm a renter and can't afford to own a home in this economy?
        transcriptase 3y ago
  - treyd 3y ago
    That's what the "social recovery" ideas are for. It's a framework for doing key management across multiple trusted parties under controlled conditions in the hypothetical case your primary keys are inaccessible. You could have your executor hold a key, for example.
brucethemoose2 3y ago
I love this scenario. "Why is Bitcoin a great asset?" "Because its the future of currency! Its great and everyone will use it!" "Then why don't you just get it directly?" "Uh, its too much of a hassle. For me. A professional finance worker."
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
> Nobody's going to bother with that now - what's the point? This is actually a great comment that I think applies well to the crypto world as a whole, even if that wasn't your original intent.
- fancyfredbot 3y ago
  I will own up to trolling slightly to draw attention to the fact that exhanging bitcoin as a digital currency is not something which would occur to most people who own it. The only thing most people will do with their bitcoin is exchange it for fiat.
  - tempestn 3y ago
    That and hodl it, hoping it'll someday be worth more.
bob_malrey 3y ago
But what’s the point of Bitcoin then? They might as well put anything in these ETFs and it’d be the same thing then: the flat rocks in my garden are limited in number and very scarce, wanna put some in an etf?
- rkagerer 3y ago
  Maybe, but my rocks are better, faster, and more scalable! Frankly we could probably get our rock ETF's approved more quickly. Regardless of how you feel about Bitcoin, it's not (or shouldn't be) the SEC's place to play nanny and dictate the particular assets/commodities/etc. in which you're allowed to invest your money. Incidentally even one of SEC commissioners agrees https://www.sec.gov/news/statement/peirce-statement-spot-bitcoin-011023 https://www.sec.gov/news/statement/peirce-statement-spot-bit...
  - dovakin 3y ago
    Well as a matter of fact btc is none of these things compared to any other crypto, which are themselves not particularly any of these things. But I agree with the fact it’s not the SEC’s role to tell us the merit of btc. I do have some worries on the Tether scam still going on for example though, which has been manipulating BTC for years.
    - rvnx 3y ago
      No matter if it is a scam or not, at the end it worked. Similar to banks which don't have enough capital. Now Tether owns tons of money, and can buy treasuries that bring few % of interests, and these interests are not paid back to USDT holders. As a result, overtime, they'll be able to fill-in any potential gaps or money accidentally lost.
      - teh_infallible 3y ago
        Impressive, isn’t it? They bootstrapped a stablecoin! Edit: spelling
- 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rkagerer 3y ago
It's not really that hard, and the tools are continually evolving to be more user friendly (e.g. Last year Trezor added hardware support to simplify Shamir backup). Of course the ability to hit "buy now" in the same marketplace you manage all your other investments is pretty low friction and I'm sure this decision will bring fresh investment out of the woodwork.
houseatrielah 3y ago
Save approx. 1% on fees annually is the point.
miohtama 3y ago
Everyone who does not have access to the US financial system will keep doing it. Which is 7/8B people on this planet.
- lxgr 3y ago
  Are you missing some other somewhat relevant financial systems here by any chance? The EU (higher population than the US) has had Bitcoin ETFs for a while now.
TheDudeMan 3y ago
Your question is equivalent to asking the point of bitcoin (avoid centralization).

trompetenaccoun 3y ago

The mob always wins in the end, but I never understood why many on HN have been so cynical about Bitcoin. At least Satoshi tried, whoever they were. They gave a gift to the world, but it sadly got co-opted and taken over first by small-time grifters and now by the big boys at Wall Street. In hindsight it was probably bound to happen, because money buys influence and a casual decentralized group of coders can never win against banks and governments. Anyway, digital gold is still better than nothing. It's still an innovation as a store of value, even if the payments idea is basically history (some Bitcoin maxis just don't understand that yet). Also Bitcoin has inspired a whole ecosystem of other blockchains. If you want the original concept of a peer-to-peer electronic cash system, Monero is probably one of the best to check out currently. Governments are btw currently going after Monero, because unlike the common myth about Bitcoin, it actually enables anonymous payments - just like cash. And so of course we can't have that. Multiple exchanges already announced they were forced to delist XMR.

loceng 3y ago
It's only worth something if someone else values it vs. physical gold.
- snapcaster 3y ago
  Of course, this is also true of physical gold though. If all non-industrial use of gold were to end the price would collapse
  - losteric 3y ago
    That's a tautology.... The aesthetic and industrial applications of gold are what makes it intrinsically valuable - that being the key distinction, and distinct from Bitcoin. If you ignore the useful aspects, of course it's no different from any useless thing.
- sapphicsnail 3y ago
  Gold's value is mostly disconnected from it's utility. We've just decided it's valuable for a longer period of time so less people question it.

maxioatic 3y ago

But then I have to pay taxes on it. Time to full send my retirement accounts into these ETFs so I can retire early. /s Actually though I might consider allocating a tiny percentage (1-3%) to these. Seems like fairly low risk with enough upside, but who knows.

siwatanejo 3y ago
What do you mean? self-custodying BTC is still unrealized gains until you sell, so no tax either.
- ghshephard 3y ago
  BTC ETF in in a 401K/IRA can be contributed, grow, or possibly be withdrawn tax-free depending on how you set it up. Coinbase reports your gains and you owe taxes on them. (Don't think Coinbase has an IRA/401K option for custody. Yet.)
- maxioatic 3y ago
  I was referring to the capital gains tax you pay for selling BTC on an exchange. I was thinking specifically about Roth IRAs, where any gains are tax free, but a 401k or similar would work too.
anonu 3y ago
These are cash creates not in kind creates. So there is no escaping taxes. You will be paying capital gains just by holding spot Bitcoin ETFs Edit: after further research it appears that the cash create mechanism doesn't cause a tax event for shareholders as it does with mutual funds. See https://www.grayscale.com/blog/legal-topics/addressing-potential-tax-considerations-for-investors-in-spot-bitcoin-etfs https://www.grayscale.com/blog/legal-topics/addressing-poten... We will have to see how every Bitcoin ETF is structured. YMMV depending on this structure and how you get taxed.
- tempestn 3y ago
  I think the parent is talking about buying the ETF inside a tax sheltered account.