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As an ESL, my opinions in exclamation points are “shrug”. But here’s something about tone that grinds my gears: Why is clear writing considered aggressive? I o

• _a_a_a_ 3y ago
  Word.
• MengerSponge 3y ago
  Skill issue. What you intend as "clear" has an aggressive tone. It may be related to power differentials: when talking to peers or superiors people tend to use more deferential and roundabout phrasing. When talking to an underling, communication can be much more terse.
  • Detrytus 3y ago
    > Skill issue. What you intend as "clear" has an aggressive tone. That's one of the things I find weird about English. Just saying what you want in a straightforward way is considered "rude" or "aggressive", and you have to add tons of those bullshit expressions like "please", "would you mind", typically at least two or three of them in a single sentence. What a waste of time....
    • floxy 3y ago
      I'd love an example (or two) of a single sentence using two or three of these "niceties".
      • Detrytus 3y ago
        I would love to give you some good examples, but if you could wait till tomorrow that would be great. Sorry for sneaky edit :-)
        • floxy 3y ago
          So maybe it is just overly flowery language in general? How would you like to word that? - Tomorrow. - I'll give examples tomorrow. - I have good examples to give you tomorrow. ...Do you find the "extra" language is equally required in speech and text? I also wonder if there is a certain conservation of syllables across languages, maybe related to how fast our brains can process speech? And in some languages the syllables are needed for comprehension, and in other language there are "filler" words?
      • Cthulhu_ 3y ago
        Your quote is one already; instead of saying "Give me an example or two", you don't even ask, you instead posit a problem, a thing you would like, without asking anyone in specific. It's indirect communication, and sometimes people get upset if their indirect question or their positing of a problem isn't responded with a "Here you go!". If you want something, go and find it. If you want someone else to provide it for you, ask. Or tell. But don't posit a problem and expect someone to fix it for you.
        • trealira 3y ago
          It's interesting for me to have this pointed out. I've read posts from English speakers trying to learn Japanese complain about Japanese culture being very indirect and subtle, but the same complaint can be applied to our own culture. As a teenager, I stayed in Spain for a month living with a host couple, and I remember the wife telling me that I said "por favor" too much (like asking "could you please pass the salt?" at dinner) asked for things too much, and generally acted overly polite. For example, it's apparently more common in Spain to order food at restaurants like "Give me a coffee (please)" and not "I would like a coffee, please". All this was in Spanish; I'm just translating what we said into English.
        • wuiheerfoj 3y ago
          ‘forgive me that I’m not fully understanding what you mean - but could you possibly give me an example or two to kick my brain into gear?’
          • floxy 3y ago
            Let me assure you, mealy-mouthed or saccharine phrases are not required for English.
    • CodexArcanum 3y ago
      It's a silly that you list "please" as fluff. That critical word changes a demand into a request, which is very powerful. "Hand me that." An order, a directive, as one might issue to a servant. "Hand me that, please?" A question, a request, a favor, as you might ask of someone you respect.
      • Detrytus 3y ago
        But in sentences like: “Could you hand me that, please?” The word “please” seems redundant, “could you” already does the job of asking nicely. That is, from my perspective as someone speaking English as a second language.
        • tnecniv 3y ago
          In that case, it does not materially change the content but it does change the tone to indicate you would appreciate them responding in the affirmative . Adding a “please” to a request also doesn’t make it harder to understand. You do have a point, though. Passive voice can be a lot more wordy / harder to parse, but people often use it to be more polite sounding.
      • floxy 3y ago
        >"Hand me that." An order, a directive, as one might issue to a servant. Do English speakers generally not use "please" and "thank you" with servants?
    • happytoexplain 3y ago
      Eh, language is complex. Maybe some people read too much into the absence of a please, but in English, imperatives are in fact intrinsically rude most of the time. If I say, "open the window", that's rude in 9 out of 10 contexts, as opposed to "could you open the window?" That said, I have absolutely seen people be excessively polite in a way that comes off as non-genuine, but they are always ESLs. I assume they just have a hard time seeing the line, so they try to play it safe.
      • Swizec 3y ago
        > That said, I have absolutely seen people be excessively polite in a way that comes off as non-genuine, but they are always ESLs. I assume they just have a hard time seeing the line, so they try to play it safe. I wonder if on a subconscious level people give me the too-aggressive feedback for the same reason women get that feedback: I’m an immigrant and acting too much like an equal.
• yaky 3y ago
  Both my sibling and I experienced the same in the US corporate culture. Even non-confrontational phrases have to be wrapped in multiple layers of please / perhaps / would you kindly to not be considered "rude". From what I heard, this "corp-politeness" is somewhat of a meme in foreign software developer teams and is often mocked.
  • wuiheerfoj 3y ago
    I guess it’s sort of game theoretical - making you sift through extra words has a lower downside than somebody else in the company thinking I’m being curt and aggressive with them, thus it’s safer to add the ‘corp-politeness’
  • qingcharles 3y ago
    And then you go to some East Asian countries and even the US-level politeness comes across as rude.