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Evolutionary sociobiology is consistently deployed to reinforce pre-existing values (e.g. during the Vietnam war, there were books that argued that humans had e
by shermantanktop 3y ago
Evolutionary sociobiology is consistently deployed to reinforce pre-existing values (e.g. during the Vietnam war, there were books that argued that humans had evolved to be intrinsically warlike). The non-falsifiability of the reasoning is a pretty good clue.
So if you want to eat meat, knock yourself out, but don't do it because you imagine a caveman did it.
- tempodox 3y agoRight, cave paintings of animal hunts were just an early form of fake news. /s
- rpmisms 3y agoBut cavemen did eat meat. We know this.
- mytailorisrich 3y agoThat's even how they survived, really. In addition, I believe that a main theory to explain why we're so good at endurance running is that we evolved to be good at persistence hunting.
- rpmisms 3y agoWe call them hunter-gatherers. What were they hunting, tofurkey? Edit to respond to edit: Yep! Persistence hunting (and tool use in combination) was our huge advantage over literally every animal. We're the apex predator through unconventional means.
- _a_a_a_ 3y agoMaybe only in the last few hundreds of thousands of years. Pre that, AFAIK we were a prey species. Sans spears etc. we're not too hot.
- shermantanktop 3y agoHere's a compendium of similarly-reasoned theories about animals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_So_Stories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_So_Stories
- mytailorisrich 3y agoWhat's the point of this comment? To insult without bringing anything to the discussion?
- shermantanktop 3y agoDidn't mean it that way. These evolutionary theories are often called "just so stories" because of Kipling's book. And in my mind, if the reasoning is similar to a kid's book, that's a problem. "The reason humans have opposable thumbs is because...we can grip tools better that way." "The reason we have hair on our heads is...because we like to style it and attract mates." "The reason humans have bellybuttons is...because bellybutton lint is a source of entertainment." They are just speculations. It certainly is possible to look at the fossil record and see how traits evolved in ways that fit other patterns. But when people look at their own bodies, they are highly susceptible to circular or fantastical reasoning.
- _a_a_a_ 3y ago> They are just speculations So what do you suggest instead?
- shermantanktop 3y agoI'd suggest that people stop using fairytales about monkeys to justify personal choices or cultural norms. We're complicated, there are a lot of reasons we do what we do, and there may be some broad patterns in human society and history that we can correlate to our evolutionary history. But that's not why Bob added bacon to his cheeseburger today.
- luplex 3y agoThis is true, but cavemen also regularly murdered other humans, a practice that we rightfully abandoned. "Cavemen did that too" is not enough justification for some behavior. Cavemen also did not use computers. In fact, we evolved to communicate using only our bodies! We have long crossed the point where humanity can decide how it wants to live.
- rpmisms 3y agoWe also frequently kill each other, we've just abstracted/outsourced the process here in the West. Computers also simply abstract or outsource verbally communicating and thinking. Vegans also outsource killing animals to the farmers who mow down billions of small (and large!) animals and insects every year to grow their vegetables. We don't have the control you imagine we do. Edit: here's a source on vegans killing lots of animals https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10806-018-9733-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10806-018-9733-8
- someplaceguy 3y agoYup, as someone (who I don't remember) famously said: "if you want to kill the most animals, be a vegan". Edit: source (45 seconds): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvFixaZdvCg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvFixaZdvCg
- rpmisms 3y agoI've killed the majority of my own meat this past year. That was one cow, two sheep, two deer, and a few dozen rabbits. An acre of soy takes orders of magnitudes more carnage.
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- hombre_fatal 3y agoI guess this reasoning could make sense to you if you never consider what animals eat nor how many habitats are destroyed to farm animals and grow cropland for them. For example, 80% of soy is grown to be fed to animals. A diet of plants causes the fewest animals to be killed: https://animalvisuals.org/projects/1mc/ https://animalvisuals.org/projects/1mc/ Of course, I don't think anyone who brings up crop deaths actually cares about animals dying since they never change their diet after being corrected. Their motive is to absolve themselves of moral responsibility, not genuine concern for animal lives.
- zer00eyz 3y ago>>> there were books that argued that humans had evolved to be intrinsically warlike Let find the point in human history where the threat of physical and sexual violence wasn't massive relative to now? We have rules for fucking war because with out them we will rape, pillage and salt the earth in our wake. We raped and murdered our nearest cousins (neanderthals and denisovans) into extinction. We are war like, the dominant monkey gets to reproduce... > So if you want to eat meat, knock yourself out, but don't do it because you imagine a caveman did it. B12, let's take that out of your diet, take away the meat, eggs and dairy and see how long you live. Oh wait, you need that to live and meat, eggs or dairy are the only source of it.
- _a_a_a_ 3y ago> We raped and murdered our nearest cousins (neanderthals and denisovans) into extinction Mebbe (and that's my suspicion) but that's conjecture > Oh wait, you need [B12] live and meat, eggs or dairy are the only source of it. I take vit supplements (shrug)
- Alpha3031 3y agoMmm yeast flakes and vegemite, yum. I'm not even vegan and I can say that anyone who thinks only animals have B12 is missing out on some good shiit.