4 ms·

I feel like I went into this from a position of genuine interest, I'm always on the lookout for significant developments in backend architecture. But when I hi

I feel like I went into this from a position of genuine interest, I'm always on the lookout for significant developments in backend architecture. But when I hit the sentence "This can completely correct any sort of human error," I actually laughed out loud. Either the author is overconfident or they have had surprisingly little exposure to humans. More concretely, it seems to completely disregard the possibility of invalid/improper/inconsistent events being introduced by the writer... the way that things go wrong. And I don't see any justification for disregarding this possibility, it's just sort of waved away. That means waving way most of the actual complexity I see in this design, of having to construct your PState data models from your actual, problematic event history. Anyone that's worked with ETLs over a large volume of data will have spent many hours on this fight. I think the concept is interesting, but the revolutionary zeal of this introduction seems unjustified. It's so confident in the superiority of Rama that I have a hard time believing any of the claims. I would like to see a much more balanced compare/contrast of Rama to a more conventional approach, and particularly I would like to see that for a much more complex application than a Twitter clone, which is probably just about the best possible case for demonstrating this architecture.

bunderbunder 3y ago
Indeed. The single most expensive human error I ever made in my life, I made in a system that was architected in exactly this way that the author claims eliminates the possibility of such errors. Yes, it is true that it was very easy to fix the problem and restore the system to working order. But, by the time we detected and resolved the defect, the system had already been operating out of spec for some time and the damage had already been done. This article seems to be ignorant of its own context. If ensuring that the database is internally consistent is really all it takes, then we all would have stopped worrying about it back in 1983 when Reuter and Harder originally formalized ACID.
Affric 3y ago
Everything about databases is terrible and there is no problem any of their restrictions solve. Everything about Rama’s model is revolutionary, dramatic, very this, extremely that. The hyperbolic nature of every claim combined with the very thin evidence makes it hard to take any of it seriously. It’s like speaking to a proselytiser for a cult.
berniedurfee 3y ago
Isn’t this just a thinly veiled ad? That’s the way I read it, until I stopped when I realized it was another ad. I feel like these posts should be tagged with [Advertisement] like they used to do in magazines.
ljm 3y ago
I was curious too, and I'm sure Rama is amazing for some use-case, but ultimately I think suffers from being more of a puff piece to market the tech. I don't want to be so dismissive right off the bat though. The author of this post has hedged their bets on Rama being the solution to building stateful services, but it shares the same pitfall that it's not one-size-fits-all. It takes an expert to design a domain; something which is rarely invested in up-front because in the startup world you might not actually know it up front, not totally. You'll inevitably end up with something thats needs work in future, whether you're managing an SQL schema or mapping out domain events and whether you push data from the producer or fetch it from the consumer. In that sense, event sourcing is no better or worse than any other option, and state has to live somewhere. It's always going to be global in some sense otherwise it's like a Haskell program with no side-effects: you got nothing. Microsoft Access is/was a pretty nifty tool for building basic applications backed by an RDBMS. You focussed on designing your schema and then it was trivial to build a GUI on top of it in what we would now consider to be 'low code' or 'no code' fashion. We were taught how to do it in secondary school at the age of 11. The storage layer wasn't the problem. You learn 1NF, 2NF, 3NF and all that and then build a table that has 1:1, 1:many and many:many relationships, and then watch Access build a GUI for you that is ugly but basically just works. You could say they're actually skeuomorphic in that these databases, and spreadsheets, map quite closely to how you would file paper documents, index them, and cross-reference them, with the human being the querying interface. In that sense I think the author has got it all the wrong way round. The complexity is all on the client these days, particularly when it comes to the web. Frontend development monopolises your time: it's 2023 and you still have to write HTML, React, CSS, JSX, what have you from scratch to construct a fancy layer of UI over what is fundamentally a glorified data-entry tool. SPAs are still enormously complex and brittle and thousands of developers are out there building the exact same stuff for their UI, just every so slightly differently each time - look at Reddit, whose mobile web UI presents you a surprise bug every time you load the page. Why still? MVC for a native GUI holds tried and true. The browser offers you that kind of tooling and WebComponents certainly seem like a step in the right direction, but so much time is spent smashing together collections of React components and styled components and whatever else the million dependencies your project contains offers you. And the concept of actually automating this through AI hilariously seems to be novel.
apitman 3y ago
> I would like to see that for a much more complex application than a Twitter clone I don't think they intended the complexity of the app to be the impressive part, so much as the scalability.

bunderbunder 3y ago

Indeed. The single most expensive human error I ever made in my life, I made in a system that was architected in exactly this way that the author claims eliminates the possibility of such errors. Yes, it is true that it was very easy to fix the problem and restore the system to working order. But, by the time we detected and resolved the defect, the system had already been operating out of spec for some time and the damage had already been done. This article seems to be ignorant of its own context. If ensuring that the database is internally consistent is really all it takes, then we all would have stopped worrying about it back in 1983 when Reuter and Harder originally formalized ACID.

Affric 3y ago

Everything about databases is terrible and there is no problem any of their restrictions solve. Everything about Rama’s model is revolutionary, dramatic, very this, extremely that. The hyperbolic nature of every claim combined with the very thin evidence makes it hard to take any of it seriously. It’s like speaking to a proselytiser for a cult.

berniedurfee 3y ago

Isn’t this just a thinly veiled ad? That’s the way I read it, until I stopped when I realized it was another ad. I feel like these posts should be tagged with [Advertisement] like they used to do in magazines.

ljm 3y ago

I was curious too, and I'm sure Rama is amazing for some use-case, but ultimately I think suffers from being more of a puff piece to market the tech. I don't want to be so dismissive right off the bat though. The author of this post has hedged their bets on Rama being the solution to building stateful services, but it shares the same pitfall that it's not one-size-fits-all. It takes an expert to design a domain; something which is rarely invested in up-front because in the startup world you might not actually know it up front, not totally. You'll inevitably end up with something thats needs work in future, whether you're managing an SQL schema or mapping out domain events and whether you push data from the producer or fetch it from the consumer. In that sense, event sourcing is no better or worse than any other option, and state has to live somewhere. It's always going to be global in some sense otherwise it's like a Haskell program with no side-effects: you got nothing. Microsoft Access is/was a pretty nifty tool for building basic applications backed by an RDBMS. You focussed on designing your schema and then it was trivial to build a GUI on top of it in what we would now consider to be 'low code' or 'no code' fashion. We were taught how to do it in secondary school at the age of 11. The storage layer wasn't the problem. You learn 1NF, 2NF, 3NF and all that and then build a table that has 1:1, 1:many and many:many relationships, and then watch Access build a GUI for you that is ugly but basically just works. You could say they're actually skeuomorphic in that these databases, and spreadsheets, map quite closely to how you would file paper documents, index them, and cross-reference them, with the human being the querying interface. In that sense I think the author has got it all the wrong way round. The complexity is all on the client these days, particularly when it comes to the web. Frontend development monopolises your time: it's 2023 and you still have to write HTML, React, CSS, JSX, what have you from scratch to construct a fancy layer of UI over what is fundamentally a glorified data-entry tool. SPAs are still enormously complex and brittle and thousands of developers are out there building the exact same stuff for their UI, just every so slightly differently each time - look at Reddit, whose mobile web UI presents you a surprise bug every time you load the page. Why still? MVC for a native GUI holds tried and true. The browser offers you that kind of tooling and WebComponents certainly seem like a step in the right direction, but so much time is spent smashing together collections of React components and styled components and whatever else the million dependencies your project contains offers you. And the concept of actually automating this through AI hilariously seems to be novel.

apitman 3y ago

> I would like to see that for a much more complex application than a Twitter clone I don't think they intended the complexity of the app to be the impressive part, so much as the scalability.