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There’s a reason your citations are nearly a decade old at best; the science has changed. A 2021 meta-analysis showed that, “shame correlates negatively with s

There’s a reason your citations are nearly a decade old at best; the science has changed. A 2021 meta-analysis showed that, “shame correlates negatively with self-esteem and is large effect size.” [0] So unless the goal of your shame is to actively harm the people involved, then no, shame is not an effective tool at behavior change, given the damage it causes. You may be thinking of “guilt” rather than shame: > In sum, shame and guilt refer to related but distinct negative “self-conscious” emotions. Although both are unpleasant, shame is the more painful self-focused emotion linked to hiding or escaping. Guilt, in contrast, focuses on the behavior and is linked to making amends. [1] [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8768475/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8768475/ [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3328863/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3328863/

Eisenstein 3y ago
Regarding your sources: One has to do with self-esteem, which has nothing to do with whether it is pro-social or beneficial, just that some types of shame harm self-esteem, which was never contested. The second study is about criminal populations, and I specifically mentioned that shame is about self-policing, and that obviously didn't work if someone is incarcerated for a crime.
- redcobra762 3y ago
  Did you read them? If your goal is to effect change, hurting people's self esteem is a negative effect that is entirely unnecessary to change. And criminals aren't some ungovernable animals...
  - Eisenstein 3y ago
    > If your goal is to effect change, hurting people's self esteem is a negative effect that is entirely unnecessary to change. Yes, your self esteem will likely be harmed if you do something bad and it gets found out. > And criminals aren't some ungovernable animals... ?
    - pests 3y ago
      I'm confused too. People live inside such safe spaces now. The thought of a negative emotion is to be avoided at all costs. Shame makes people feel bad, so we must do all we can do avoid making anyone feel that. What's next? Is "disappointment" next? Having someone disappointed in you feels bad, therefore no one can ever show disappointment to others?
      - redcobra762 3y ago
        You’re confused about how shame could make someone unproductive? How shame could drive a behavior underground rather than eliminate it, thus exacerbating the issue rather than reducing it? As you are demonstrating, shame is more about causing pain than changing behavior. You seem to want to hurt people, and that’s one reason why shame is not effective. You don’t care that equally or more effective means exist for improving behavior.
        Eisenstein 3y ago
        It isn't letting me reply to you above because it locks down comment chains that get replied to quickly to avoid flame wars, so I will reply here and be done. > So you admit that shame can be bad? Then you’re close. Next you need to realize that shame’s effectiveness is dependent on a person feeling shame the way you want them to. But that’s not how it actually works, is it? Instead, shame is sourced from the judgements of others, so one way of effectively mitigating shame is to hide the behavior from others, rather than stopping it. So shame is ineffective. I never claimed that shame couldn't be bad -- I said it is essential for society to function properly. I cited two studies which demonstrated that shame can be prosocial and beneficial depending on circumstances. > And I’m not being silly. You tried to dismiss the legitimacy of my citation by dismissing an entire category of people. That was inconsiderate. I dismissed your studies because they were both irrelevant to my point and did not contradict anything I cited. If you feel that I am othering prisoners because I said that the situation of the people in the study made it useless to make your point, then I object to that and say that you are grasping at straws since you have no reasonable argument otherwise. Look, you have every right to be absolutely wrong in this case, so don't bother changing your mind or looking at my actual standing on the issue and instead imagine I am some kind of meany pants who wants people to feel bad if you want, but I am done with this conversation.

Eisenstein 3y ago

Regarding your sources: One has to do with self-esteem, which has nothing to do with whether it is pro-social or beneficial, just that some types of shame harm self-esteem, which was never contested. The second study is about criminal populations, and I specifically mentioned that shame is about self-policing, and that obviously didn't work if someone is incarcerated for a crime.

redcobra762 3y ago
Did you read them? If your goal is to effect change, hurting people's self esteem is a negative effect that is entirely unnecessary to change. And criminals aren't some ungovernable animals...
- Eisenstein 3y ago
  > If your goal is to effect change, hurting people's self esteem is a negative effect that is entirely unnecessary to change. Yes, your self esteem will likely be harmed if you do something bad and it gets found out. > And criminals aren't some ungovernable animals... ?
  - pests 3y ago
    I'm confused too. People live inside such safe spaces now. The thought of a negative emotion is to be avoided at all costs. Shame makes people feel bad, so we must do all we can do avoid making anyone feel that. What's next? Is "disappointment" next? Having someone disappointed in you feels bad, therefore no one can ever show disappointment to others?
    - redcobra762 3y ago
      You’re confused about how shame could make someone unproductive? How shame could drive a behavior underground rather than eliminate it, thus exacerbating the issue rather than reducing it? As you are demonstrating, shame is more about causing pain than changing behavior. You seem to want to hurt people, and that’s one reason why shame is not effective. You don’t care that equally or more effective means exist for improving behavior.
      - Eisenstein 3y ago
        It isn't letting me reply to you above because it locks down comment chains that get replied to quickly to avoid flame wars, so I will reply here and be done. > So you admit that shame can be bad? Then you’re close. Next you need to realize that shame’s effectiveness is dependent on a person feeling shame the way you want them to. But that’s not how it actually works, is it? Instead, shame is sourced from the judgements of others, so one way of effectively mitigating shame is to hide the behavior from others, rather than stopping it. So shame is ineffective. I never claimed that shame couldn't be bad -- I said it is essential for society to function properly. I cited two studies which demonstrated that shame can be prosocial and beneficial depending on circumstances. > And I’m not being silly. You tried to dismiss the legitimacy of my citation by dismissing an entire category of people. That was inconsiderate. I dismissed your studies because they were both irrelevant to my point and did not contradict anything I cited. If you feel that I am othering prisoners because I said that the situation of the people in the study made it useless to make your point, then I object to that and say that you are grasping at straws since you have no reasonable argument otherwise. Look, you have every right to be absolutely wrong in this case, so don't bother changing your mind or looking at my actual standing on the issue and instead imagine I am some kind of meany pants who wants people to feel bad if you want, but I am done with this conversation.