6 ms·

I find it disturbing that this is even controversial. First, the notion that there is an optimal "healthy" state is make-believe. We all get old and die, so in

I find it disturbing that this is even controversial. First, the notion that there is an optimal "healthy" state is make-believe. We all get old and die, so in a sense we are all terminally ill. We should have a right to improve our minds and bodies as long as there is room for improvement. More to the point, brain types fall on a spectrum. ADHD is just one extreme. Equating "median" with "healthy" is a fallacy. Consider this: is synesthesia a disease? It can make life very hard, but it can also make patient extremely creative. Imagine a world where synesthesia is the normal condition -- non-synesthetes would be considered retards! If there were a drug that could turn you into a synesthete, should the drug be illegal? Second, we all already take a brain-boosting drug: caffeine, which is both undeniably effective, and has a wide spectrum of side effects. Other drugs like modafinil have almost zero side-effects in comparison, but they are prescription-only because they don't have a history of social acceptability. "Used historically" = "safe" is an even bigger fallacy. Third, you can't prevent people from taking brain pills by not funding research (if the research doesn't happen in the U.S, it will happen in other countries.). All that this policy will achieve is encourage a black market and unsafe usage. The whole thing reminds me strongly of that Kurt Vonnegut piece posted here yesterday: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=388642 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=388642.

mynameishere 18y ago
A hallmark of conservativism is to recognize that 90 percent of our behavior is much the same as occurred 2000 years ago, but many, many innovations came and went in between (Heroin: Cure for morphine addiction). What happened to them? They were tried, and they were discarded by the credible professions. Maybe these drugs are good. "Maybe". Most drug tests occur over a matter of months, rather than a lifetime. Caffeine has been tried over centuries, and that fact has value, because within those centuries are lifetimes and generations. Every new drug is roulette, and you know it. modafinil have almost zero side-effects in comparison, See, bullshit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Side-effects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Side-effects
- kragen 18y ago
  If I understand correctly, that page says that 34% of modafinil takers reported headaches, compared to 23% of non-modafinil takers, 11% reported nausea (vs. 3%), 7% reported nervousness (vs. 3%), and 5% reported insomnia (vs. 1%). What do you think the numbers for caffeine would be? Caffeine withdrawal is a major cause of headaches, and caffeine is a major cause of nervousness, insomnia, tachycardia, hypertension, dizziness, etc. I'm not saying caffeine is some kind of dangerous drug; I'm just saying that "almost zero side effects in comparison" is at least plausible given the Wikipedia page.
  - mynameishere 18y ago
    Caffeine has this other advantage: That certain beverages that contain it are culinarily exquisite. Same with ethanol (praise god).
    - kragen 18y ago
      Modafinil is effective in small enough doses that you could put it into just about any beverage you like, just like amphetamine, piracetam, and so on, and unlike ethanol. You may enjoy quaffing toxic organic solvents like ethanol, but I don't particularly fancy the idea myself.
      - silentbicycle 18y ago
        You can't really put piracetam in "just about any beverage", both because of the taste and the sheer quantity. That would be like trying to hide a tablespoon of ground-up mothballs in your orange juice. (Aniracetam or oxiracetam, maybe.)
        kragen 18y ago
        Oops! I was speaking from ignorance. Thank you for the correction!
        randomwalker 18y ago
natrius 18y ago
"Other drugs like modafinil have almost zero side-effects in comparison" Oh? I'd love to read the study on the safety of long term modafinil usage that you are doubtlessly referring to. I think it's ridiculous that the government prevents me from taking various substances, but claiming that poorly understood drugs are safe is ridiculous. No one even knows how modafinil works.
- mahipal 18y ago
  That's a bit of an exaggeration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Pharmacology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Pharmacology http://www.modafinil.com/ http://www.modafinil.com/ Sure, there's no long-term studies, but we can extrapolate from the receptors that it acts on and its relatively minor side effects that it wouldn't be too bad to take it over a long term. At least for it's main indication, ADHD, it's far better than the alternatives of Ritalin or Adderall.
  - car 18y ago
    You are wrong. Modafinil's only indication is narcolepsy.
    - bbhoss-synsol 18y ago
      Modafinil (Provigil) is indicated for use treating narcolepsy, which was it's initial indication. Recently, the FDA has approved it for treatment of symptoms of obstructive sleep apnea (which I take it for), and shift work sleep disorder. http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E1885256E27006E9B20 http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E...
    - helveticaman 18y ago
      I have been prescribed Modafinil for Adult ADD.
      - Shamiq 18y ago
        That's an off-label usage. Not saying that it's illegal or bad in any sense, just that the drug wasn't approved for such usage. Also, I was on medication for about 2 months. Then I threw away the prescription -- it left me soulless. How is it treating you?
DenisM 18y ago
Here's the point you've missed: I can, and do, abstain from caffeine and pretty much all other drugs. Mind-enhancing drugs will become compulsory for everyone who want to keep their jobs - else competition will elbow them out. Imagine that in society with 99% uptake of a certain drug the sideffects start showing up after 40 years of intake. What then? Two full generations of cripples? Even the people who wanted to abstain would be victimized.
- thomaspaine 18y ago
  Why would mind enhancing drugs become compulsory to keep your job? As someone already pointed out, caffeine is a mind enhancing drug, and I've never heard of anyone get fired for not drinking a latte. Or what about alcohol? You could certainly make the argument that drinking alcohol can help you professionally, either by making you more extroverted or social at events, or because you like to go to happy hour with your co-workers. Even in the sports industry, where performance enhancing drugs are relatively pervasive, you don't see steroids becoming compulsory for athletes. I know professional athletes who don't even take protein shakes.
  - DenisM 18y ago
    Why would mind enhancing drugs become compulsory to keep your job? Because some drugs could be bad for my health? Maybe not right now, maybe 40 years later.
  - DenisM 18y ago
    Whether caffeine improves performance is questionable. It certainly does for caffeine addicts - they can't funciton without a fix, but those who are not hooked function well enough. Even then, caffeine does not have long-lasting side-effects as has been proven over few hundred years.
nazgulnarsil 18y ago
conflating "median" and "correct" is the natural result f people being steeped in collectivist ideology and politics their whole life. in a true democracy you have social constructivism.

mynameishere 18y ago

A hallmark of conservativism is to recognize that 90 percent of our behavior is much the same as occurred 2000 years ago, but many, many innovations came and went in between (Heroin: Cure for morphine addiction). What happened to them? They were tried, and they were discarded by the credible professions. Maybe these drugs are good. "Maybe". Most drug tests occur over a matter of months, rather than a lifetime. Caffeine has been tried over centuries, and that fact has value, because within those centuries are lifetimes and generations. Every new drug is roulette, and you know it. modafinil have almost zero side-effects in comparison, See, bullshit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Side-effects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Side-effects

kragen 18y ago
If I understand correctly, that page says that 34% of modafinil takers reported headaches, compared to 23% of non-modafinil takers, 11% reported nausea (vs. 3%), 7% reported nervousness (vs. 3%), and 5% reported insomnia (vs. 1%). What do you think the numbers for caffeine would be? Caffeine withdrawal is a major cause of headaches, and caffeine is a major cause of nervousness, insomnia, tachycardia, hypertension, dizziness, etc. I'm not saying caffeine is some kind of dangerous drug; I'm just saying that "almost zero side effects in comparison" is at least plausible given the Wikipedia page.
- mynameishere 18y ago
  Caffeine has this other advantage: That certain beverages that contain it are culinarily exquisite. Same with ethanol (praise god).
  - kragen 18y ago
    Modafinil is effective in small enough doses that you could put it into just about any beverage you like, just like amphetamine, piracetam, and so on, and unlike ethanol. You may enjoy quaffing toxic organic solvents like ethanol, but I don't particularly fancy the idea myself.
    - silentbicycle 18y ago
      You can't really put piracetam in "just about any beverage", both because of the taste and the sheer quantity. That would be like trying to hide a tablespoon of ground-up mothballs in your orange juice. (Aniracetam or oxiracetam, maybe.)
      - kragen 18y ago
        Oops! I was speaking from ignorance. Thank you for the correction!
      - randomwalker 18y ago

natrius 18y ago

"Other drugs like modafinil have almost zero side-effects in comparison" Oh? I'd love to read the study on the safety of long term modafinil usage that you are doubtlessly referring to. I think it's ridiculous that the government prevents me from taking various substances, but claiming that poorly understood drugs are safe is ridiculous. No one even knows how modafinil works.

mahipal 18y ago
That's a bit of an exaggeration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Pharmacology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Pharmacology http://www.modafinil.com/ http://www.modafinil.com/ Sure, there's no long-term studies, but we can extrapolate from the receptors that it acts on and its relatively minor side effects that it wouldn't be too bad to take it over a long term. At least for it's main indication, ADHD, it's far better than the alternatives of Ritalin or Adderall.
- car 18y ago
  You are wrong. Modafinil's only indication is narcolepsy.
  - bbhoss-synsol 18y ago
    Modafinil (Provigil) is indicated for use treating narcolepsy, which was it's initial indication. Recently, the FDA has approved it for treatment of symptoms of obstructive sleep apnea (which I take it for), and shift work sleep disorder. http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E1885256E27006E9B20 http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E...
  - helveticaman 18y ago
    I have been prescribed Modafinil for Adult ADD.
    - Shamiq 18y ago
      That's an off-label usage. Not saying that it's illegal or bad in any sense, just that the drug wasn't approved for such usage. Also, I was on medication for about 2 months. Then I threw away the prescription -- it left me soulless. How is it treating you?

DenisM 18y ago

Here's the point you've missed: I can, and do, abstain from caffeine and pretty much all other drugs. Mind-enhancing drugs will become compulsory for everyone who want to keep their jobs - else competition will elbow them out. Imagine that in society with 99% uptake of a certain drug the sideffects start showing up after 40 years of intake. What then? Two full generations of cripples? Even the people who wanted to abstain would be victimized.

thomaspaine 18y ago
Why would mind enhancing drugs become compulsory to keep your job? As someone already pointed out, caffeine is a mind enhancing drug, and I've never heard of anyone get fired for not drinking a latte. Or what about alcohol? You could certainly make the argument that drinking alcohol can help you professionally, either by making you more extroverted or social at events, or because you like to go to happy hour with your co-workers. Even in the sports industry, where performance enhancing drugs are relatively pervasive, you don't see steroids becoming compulsory for athletes. I know professional athletes who don't even take protein shakes.
- DenisM 18y ago
  Why would mind enhancing drugs become compulsory to keep your job? Because some drugs could be bad for my health? Maybe not right now, maybe 40 years later.
- DenisM 18y ago
  Whether caffeine improves performance is questionable. It certainly does for caffeine addicts - they can't funciton without a fix, but those who are not hooked function well enough. Even then, caffeine does not have long-lasting side-effects as has been proven over few hundred years.

nazgulnarsil 18y ago

conflating "median" and "correct" is the natural result f people being steeped in collectivist ideology and politics their whole life. in a true democracy you have social constructivism.