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modern democracy is a sham anyway. lets examine a recent large crisis we had in Finland - the border crisis, in which Russia systematically weaponized migrant w
by waihtis 3y ago
modern democracy is a sham anyway. lets examine a recent large crisis we had in Finland - the border crisis, in which Russia systematically weaponized migrant waves - where the democratically elected government was initially unable to act with any measures on, because it would've been in violation of a UN convention which was agreed on in the 60's.
This was one of the most prolific decisions to be done in the 2020's and yet we could just barely enforce the will of the people over the interests of extragovernmental groups. Now imagine the thousands of small decisions being done which the average voter has no transparency into.
A good start to real democracy would be completely outlawing lobbying, NGO's, think tanks and other garbage organizations who's only raison d'etre is subverting the peoples right to their own governance.
- actionfromafar 3y agoBut it did work, and in proportion to the threat the migrants posed, it didn't take that long. Following agreed upon international conventions is also important to a country in the long run.
- waihtis 3y agoBarely working in 1 case in a 1000 is hardly a good track record, plus the border is about to reopen again in 4 days because appeasing the UN is more important than national safety
- hef19898 3y agoYou do know, that a simple border closure wouldn't do anything anything against a Russian invasion?
- lupusreal 3y agoBeing a member of NATO is Finland's most important safety measure against that. And what are you even talking about, he didn't suggest that closing the border was necessary to prevent a military invasion. The national security threat it addresses is an unregulated influx of migrants handpicked by Russia to cause trouble for Finnish society, to punish Finland for joining NATO. But I guess now you're going to act shocked and offended that anybody could think these migrants could be a problem for Finland. No doubt they're truly a blessing, Finland should be happy to have them, and Russia is actually inadvertently doing Finland a favor, right?
- hef19898 3y agoOnly Sith deal in extremes, there is quite a large field between seeing immigrants as a blessing and seeing them as a national security risk. People holding the latter opinion usually come from a certain political leaning so, one that sees democracy as a tool to gain power for themselves and nothing else.
- slipandafall 3y agoHow do you they didn't provide a mix of families and felons and are banking on your exact opinion (my political opponents will use this to gain power) as the actual end goal? To me it seems like a strategy of stoking internal conflicts with actions to small to qualify as a declaration of war.
- waihtis 3y agoThe poster you're replying to is an idiot and you should disregard them; this is exactly the risk Finland is trying to mitigate. Wagner for instance has been very actively recruiting in Africa and this is a golden opportunity to sneak in military personnel of the correct ethnicity under the guise of refugees.
- slipandafall 3y agoI'd assume more of a concern troll type but you never know, there's more gullible/naive people that need things laid out in plain terms. Not necessarily knocking the person I was originally replying to, but don't forget half the population is dumber than the average. If we have to tell people not to eat laundry detergent than I can understand some people being not grasping military strategy or geopolitics. Didn't know about that happening in Africa but doesn't surprise me, do you know of anything else like that happening in Southeast Asia? Might find myself in that area and would like to know what to look out for besides vodka and people yelling "cyka blyat"
- waihtis 3y ago
- waihtis 3y agoPretty aware, given I am an active reservist and legally bound to protect said border with lethal measures if it comes to it
- hef19898 3y agoSo, you see migrants as a threat to national security. On par with a Russian invasion? Just asking, because shooting at unarmed people at the border is something people are discussing at the moment, something I cannot put my disgust for in words.
- waihtis 3y agoNice attempted bait and switch, but I don't engage with pathetic trolls like you.
- doikor 3y ago> plus the border is about to reopen again in 4 days Except the PM said we need "more actions on the border" which pretty much means continuing keeping it closed. Same from other leaks in the government according to Iltalehti. https://yle.fi/a/74-20068749 https://yle.fi/a/74-20068749 https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/12941635-5b60-4383-9684-f9a269ec65f7 https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/12941635-5b60-4383-968...
- RandomLensman 3y agoI would point out that your adversary there was actually Russia, not the immigrants or the UN or NGOs etc. (by the way, does that convention have an exit clause?). The problem is that the actual adversary is largely untouchable for Finland.
- waihtis 3y agoyes, and are we not allowed to defend ourselves from our grand adversary, even if they use unconventional methods to attack us?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- RandomLensman 3y agoYou are - but not sure how that changes what I wrote. Among other things, countries can exit conventions, change laws, declare state of emergencies or even war to potentially set aside some rules.
- hef19898 3y agoSo, you basically want an authoritarian government that does something against immigrants? And somehow, you think that would be democratic?
- resolutebat 3y agoRussia was bussing migrants without Finnish or Russian visas, in winter temps approaching -40C, through the Russian border and dumping them on the Finnish side, basically giving Finland the option of letting them in or allowing them to freeze death (because Russia certainly wouldn't let them come back). When Finland stopped letting them walk across, they magically procured bicycles; when the crossings down south were closed, they magically appeared in the far north. What other option is there than to close the border entirely?
- giraffe_lady 3y agoUh let them in?
- Propelloni 3y agoThis line of thinking always confuses me, obviously there is at least one other option: Just let them in. Immigrants, even badly educated ones, are a resource a smart country knows to use and there are a ton of options how to do that. Look up "immigration keyhole solutions" for a selection. Next time some fearmonger tries to activate your flight or fight response you have a better answer than hiding behind a wall.
- Jensson 3y ago> Immigrants, even badly educated ones, are a resource a smart country knows to use Using them that way is unethical though, to an ethical country that tries to do the right thing for its citizens they are a net drain. No country can handle the burden of doing that for the entire world, so it isn't unethical to tell countries to take care of their own instead of dumping them at your country.
- 3y ago