4 ms·

EU itself is quite an undemocratic institution. Jean-Claude Juncker and his infamous quotes about pushing through legislations is fantastic.

by mantas 3y ago

okokwhatever 3y ago
Cant upvote your comment as much as I'd like.
hef19898 3y ago
Basically every official function in the EU is either directly voted for (not the EUs fault if people don't vote) or nominated by someone democratically elected. If you don't see the difference between a truely authoritarian regime and the EU, you never paid attention in history class or current world events.
- mantas 3y ago
  There's a lot of negotiations behind closed doors where we don't know how decisions are made. E.g. how the EC is formed. EU is run in authoritarian ways, but so far it's in, let's say, benevolent dictator mode. But same mechanism can be easily abused. And it's already abused. Just in ways that don't affect day-to-day life too much. But overall it's very bad for the society which does not feel attached to decisions of it's servants. Which is the bad thing. Democracies can easily cause a lot of harm (e.g. wars, repressions etc) too. But authocracies ruin societies for a loooong time. Wether they spilled blood or not.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    EU lobbying isn't any worse than other political lobbying, both of which are bad. What the EU does so, is managing to get 27 nations to work on compromises. And it does so quite well, sometimes better and sometimes not. That, obviously, involves a ton of politics (humanity hasn't figured out a different approach yet, heck, even the most authoritarian and absolutists governments had tons of politics). The core fact remains so: all participants in EU governance are either elected directly at EU or national level or nominated by those elected parties.
    - mantas 3y ago
      It’s not about lobbying. And it’s far past managing sovereign nations to compromise. Modern EU is a beast of its own and its own interests. Which so far is power grab from member states. And trying to push through infamous laws. Such as chat surveillance. The core fact is that EU governance is far removed from the people. It’s too huge and too diverse. But it’s perfect ground for deep state (deep union?) to find ways to work around democratic instruments.
      - seec 3y ago
        Yep, and that's even before mentioning the absurd cost it has for the little real benefits the citizen truly experience. I don't know about the poorer countries in EU, maybe they get net positive benefits; but as far as I can tell, for a country like France, you only get less efficient use of the taxation money, and the outcome are generally disconnected so not necessarily well spent. There is a lot of propaganda around what EU is paying for or allowing. But the truth is that each country would be able to do the exact same thing if they wanted to, just with better money efficiency because it wouldn't have to be cut so much for feeding the bureaucracy monster of the EU...
        mantas 3y ago
        Same here re propaganda. The only difference is we get a lot of your tax money to listen to that propaganda :) But as we catch up economically, we'll get less and less euromonies. And yes, it's terribly inefficient too. The only thing it's efficient at is building a class of people who rely on EU institutions for their wellbeing. Collaborator class if I may?
        seec 3y ago
        Yes, collaborator is a nice way to put it. I have had the (dis)pleasure of spending a bit of time near Brussels with some people that do "work" tightly related/linked to EU stuff. This is EXACTLY what it feels like; and in most cases it was pretty clear to me that those people cost more money to society than any kind of "value" they were bringing. But the whole thing is politics anyway, so outcomes are kinda irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. To me it looks like a prototype of some sort of new communist system, where the "leaders" choices are completely disconnected from the rest of the population...
- isilofi 3y ago
  The EU isn't democratic in that basically every official function is only through multiple indirections dependent on the voters. So the will of the people and the sovereignty of the voters is diluted through a multitude of political backroom deals that are anything but democratic. Just look at how von der Leyen came to her job. Back in the day, when there was still a communist bloc, this kind of system, a "soviet republic" consisting of a hierarchy of workers councils was the usual example for how you can have elections but not have democracy. Because the hierarchy of councils will dilute any kind of will and sovereignty of the people into the will of the political upper class.
RandomLensman 3y ago
That isn't necessarily the EU being undemocratic but national governments using the EU to do things that are difficult to do back home.
moomin 3y ago
I think this is a bit misleading. The EU is the way it is because of democratic decisions. The commission isn’t democratic because it’s a civil service. The Parliament is less powerful than you’d expect because it would challenge national governments. The true power of the EU is the Council of Ministers, which are the representatives of the national governments. Most people looking for “more democracy” are actually advocating for a more politicised commission, which is a very bad idea.
- pi-e-sigma 3y ago
  European Parliament is not even a parliament because it can't propose any laws in the first place. It can only approve or decline laws proposed by the European Commission. It can't act on its own. The only such a parliament in the world
- leshow 3y ago
  You're just saying it's a technocracy in a nicer way
  - moomin 3y ago
    I’m saying it’s what people want. Very few people complaining about it being undemocratic actually want it to be “more democratic” because that would involve a transfer of power from the member states to the EU. In as much as it is what people actually want through revealed preference, it’s as democratic as they come.
- mantas 3y ago
  And this civil service have a ton of power to bring forward policies. Which is undemocratic. IMO more politics at EU level overall is a bad idea. The strength of europe is diversity and competition within the region. Not a bureaucracy superstate on shaky legs with a rather long runway to die.

EU itself is quite an undemocratic institution. Jean-Claude Juncker and his infamous quotes about pushing through legislations is fantastic.

by mantas 3y ago

EU itself is quite an undemocratic institution. Jean-Claude Juncker and his infamous quotes about pushing through legislations is fantastic.

okokwhatever 3y ago

Cant upvote your comment as much as I'd like.

hef19898 3y ago

Basically every official function in the EU is either directly voted for (not the EUs fault if people don't vote) or nominated by someone democratically elected. If you don't see the difference between a truely authoritarian regime and the EU, you never paid attention in history class or current world events.

mantas 3y ago
There's a lot of negotiations behind closed doors where we don't know how decisions are made. E.g. how the EC is formed. EU is run in authoritarian ways, but so far it's in, let's say, benevolent dictator mode. But same mechanism can be easily abused. And it's already abused. Just in ways that don't affect day-to-day life too much. But overall it's very bad for the society which does not feel attached to decisions of it's servants. Which is the bad thing. Democracies can easily cause a lot of harm (e.g. wars, repressions etc) too. But authocracies ruin societies for a loooong time. Wether they spilled blood or not.
- hef19898 3y ago
  EU lobbying isn't any worse than other political lobbying, both of which are bad. What the EU does so, is managing to get 27 nations to work on compromises. And it does so quite well, sometimes better and sometimes not. That, obviously, involves a ton of politics (humanity hasn't figured out a different approach yet, heck, even the most authoritarian and absolutists governments had tons of politics). The core fact remains so: all participants in EU governance are either elected directly at EU or national level or nominated by those elected parties.
  - mantas 3y ago
    It’s not about lobbying. And it’s far past managing sovereign nations to compromise. Modern EU is a beast of its own and its own interests. Which so far is power grab from member states. And trying to push through infamous laws. Such as chat surveillance. The core fact is that EU governance is far removed from the people. It’s too huge and too diverse. But it’s perfect ground for deep state (deep union?) to find ways to work around democratic instruments.
    - seec 3y ago
      Yep, and that's even before mentioning the absurd cost it has for the little real benefits the citizen truly experience. I don't know about the poorer countries in EU, maybe they get net positive benefits; but as far as I can tell, for a country like France, you only get less efficient use of the taxation money, and the outcome are generally disconnected so not necessarily well spent. There is a lot of propaganda around what EU is paying for or allowing. But the truth is that each country would be able to do the exact same thing if they wanted to, just with better money efficiency because it wouldn't have to be cut so much for feeding the bureaucracy monster of the EU...
      - mantas 3y ago
        Same here re propaganda. The only difference is we get a lot of your tax money to listen to that propaganda :) But as we catch up economically, we'll get less and less euromonies. And yes, it's terribly inefficient too. The only thing it's efficient at is building a class of people who rely on EU institutions for their wellbeing. Collaborator class if I may?
        seec 3y ago
        Yes, collaborator is a nice way to put it. I have had the (dis)pleasure of spending a bit of time near Brussels with some people that do "work" tightly related/linked to EU stuff. This is EXACTLY what it feels like; and in most cases it was pretty clear to me that those people cost more money to society than any kind of "value" they were bringing. But the whole thing is politics anyway, so outcomes are kinda irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. To me it looks like a prototype of some sort of new communist system, where the "leaders" choices are completely disconnected from the rest of the population...
isilofi 3y ago
The EU isn't democratic in that basically every official function is only through multiple indirections dependent on the voters. So the will of the people and the sovereignty of the voters is diluted through a multitude of political backroom deals that are anything but democratic. Just look at how von der Leyen came to her job. Back in the day, when there was still a communist bloc, this kind of system, a "soviet republic" consisting of a hierarchy of workers councils was the usual example for how you can have elections but not have democracy. Because the hierarchy of councils will dilute any kind of will and sovereignty of the people into the will of the political upper class.

RandomLensman 3y ago

That isn't necessarily the EU being undemocratic but national governments using the EU to do things that are difficult to do back home.

moomin 3y ago

I think this is a bit misleading. The EU is the way it is because of democratic decisions. The commission isn’t democratic because it’s a civil service. The Parliament is less powerful than you’d expect because it would challenge national governments. The true power of the EU is the Council of Ministers, which are the representatives of the national governments. Most people looking for “more democracy” are actually advocating for a more politicised commission, which is a very bad idea.

pi-e-sigma 3y ago
European Parliament is not even a parliament because it can't propose any laws in the first place. It can only approve or decline laws proposed by the European Commission. It can't act on its own. The only such a parliament in the world
leshow 3y ago
You're just saying it's a technocracy in a nicer way
- moomin 3y ago
  I’m saying it’s what people want. Very few people complaining about it being undemocratic actually want it to be “more democratic” because that would involve a transfer of power from the member states to the EU. In as much as it is what people actually want through revealed preference, it’s as democratic as they come.
mantas 3y ago
And this civil service have a ton of power to bring forward policies. Which is undemocratic. IMO more politics at EU level overall is a bad idea. The strength of europe is diversity and competition within the region. Not a bureaucracy superstate on shaky legs with a rather long runway to die.