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> I think all the social media stuff is missing the mark. I think phones may well be responsible. Before smartphones, people regularly experienced true downtim

> I think all the social media stuff is missing the mark. I think phones may well be responsible. Before smartphones, people regularly experienced true downtime - unstructured moments with nothing to do except be in your surroundings, feel your own boredom, experience your thoughts. Now, the moment our attention isn’t occupied by something external, we reach for our phones to have something to fill the silence. I believe this has negatively affected everyone’s mental health, but it stands to reason that children would be worse off because they’ve never known anything different: they’ve never had the opportunity to develop the ability to just be.

Almondsetat 3y ago
>I think phones may well be responsible take a smartphone, remove its internet connection and you'll quickly discover it's the internet access thst causes all problems
- flappyeagle 3y ago
  You need both. Internet to connect to the global rat race. Phone to inject it into every waking moment of your existence.
realpotatosalad 3y ago
I wouldn't put phones as the responsible one so generally. I view phones as tool to 'solve' specific problems, such as communication. Apps and websites such as Outlook (email apps with notifications in general), LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, maybe also Hackernews etc. pose more of the role of ruining our downtime, as they are designed that way. At the end it would probably be about the lack of media competency, not knowing which apps and sites want to keep you as long as possible on their sites and which sources could benefit you better mentally. And for children, aren't we adults (& probably also young adults) responsible to teach them about what media is and how to detect the bad apples?
- anon-3988 3y ago
  > I wouldn't put phones as the responsible one so generally. From my experience, phone is an extremely common factor. If you randomly take a peek at any person in the 1st and 2nd world during their "downtime", I bet that you will 99% of the time see them on their phone. Phone have absolutely consumed everything we used to do. I cannot remember seeing a person just sitting on chair staring blankly, they almost always are on their phone or listening to something.
  - chasd00 3y ago
    > I cannot remember seeing a person just sitting on chair staring blankly heh, i have to ask, what is so great/healthy/engaging/enlightening about staring blankly? I think anything, reading a book/newspaper, talking to a stranger, petting a dog, would have been better than "staring blankly".
    - bentley 3y ago
      Well, sitting and staring blankly has been socially unusual for decades at least. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBBQdFSvvTE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBBQdFSvvTE That said: I don’t pull out my phone when waiting in line, I don’t usually have a book or newspaper handy, and I often don’t feel like talking with a stranger (though I will sometimes). That leaves me alone with my thoughts. Despite the implication of descriptions like “staring blankly”, though, my mind is absolutely active during those times. Sometimes it’s calm, sometimes it’s running a mile a minute. Maybe I’m daydreaming, maybe I’m replaying a book or movie scene in my head, maybe I’m making plans for the day, maybe I’m debating with myself or thinking philosophical thoughts or trying to work out what I should say in an upcoming meeting. Thinking thoughts is active, and I don’t consider it time wasted. Humans don’t have to be fed stimulation 24/7—the mind is a self‐stimulating organ.
    - anon373839 3y ago
      I wouldn’t argue that staring blankly is helpful in itself. But having time with nothing to engage your attention almost forces you to face your own thoughts and feelings, which many people prefer to avoid. That type of avoidance is at the root of a lot of mental health problems, and people go to therapy to learn how to face their thoughts and feelings head-on.
CraigJPerry 3y ago
>> Before smartphones, people regularly experienced true downtime Was there not a similar argument made as newspapers became commonplace? Before that the same argument had been made for books but newspapers were on another level - they were effectively limitless drugs, affordable and every single day a new one was available. Instead of talking, laughing and joking with the other workers waiting at the bus stop or in the canteen or whatever, instead you had a sea of silent men reading newspapers. I’m not convinced phones are without potential harm, but I’m hesitant to get too worked up about them vs. What’s gone before.
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  Both other animals and native tribes today spend significant amounts of their day doing nothing. Therefore it’s only logical this is the normal mode of operation of the human brain, with the opposite situation being unhealthy.
- seoulmetro 3y ago
  No one was reading the newspaper for the entire day. Instead it was a moment of reflection through the words of someone else. Right now phones never end, there is no final page and nothing is reflected upon a second time outside phone time.
  - CraigJPerry 3y ago
    You miss the point, before newspapers no one was this distracted from the present. It’s not the magnitude of distraction - a phone obviously offers more opportunity for longer distraction. It was the delta change vs. What distraction existed before.
    - seoulmetro 3y ago
      Of course they were. Stars, clouds, conversations, gardening, chess, etc. These are all distracting from present towards past or future.
- Quekid5 3y ago
jstarfish 3y ago
Maybe. I'd suggest phones are also symbolic of the affluence of the western world. We're so wealthy, we don't need to cooperate with anyone else for survival anymore. [For now.] You don't see this shit in El Salvador. Parents don't pay $100 a month so their kids can ignore them and get their life lessons from Reddit. Everyone is miserable because we need each other more than we admit. The kids really do treat each other worse than NPCs in a Westworld LARP. Those who grew up "trolling" (bullying) everyone around them online never learn how to interact with actual people in non-adversarial ways. Then they get bitter, resentful, and violent. Every school shooter that doesn't stick the gun in their mouth at the end cites alienation and loneliness as a factor. Go figure.
wisty 3y ago
I'm going to say there's at least four factors, all related to bad parenting, not that bad parenting is the only cause. The phone as a babysitter is a big one, but also parents on phones / social media. There's also an atomisation of society (fewer extended family and friends, and institutions like church groups). And parents work longer hours. Kids go home and suck on a digital pacifier so their parents can do the same, and those parents haven't got anything else to do. What chance does the kid have?

Almondsetat 3y ago

>I think phones may well be responsible take a smartphone, remove its internet connection and you'll quickly discover it's the internet access thst causes all problems

flappyeagle 3y ago
You need both. Internet to connect to the global rat race. Phone to inject it into every waking moment of your existence.

realpotatosalad 3y ago

I wouldn't put phones as the responsible one so generally. I view phones as tool to 'solve' specific problems, such as communication. Apps and websites such as Outlook (email apps with notifications in general), LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, maybe also Hackernews etc. pose more of the role of ruining our downtime, as they are designed that way. At the end it would probably be about the lack of media competency, not knowing which apps and sites want to keep you as long as possible on their sites and which sources could benefit you better mentally. And for children, aren't we adults (& probably also young adults) responsible to teach them about what media is and how to detect the bad apples?

anon-3988 3y ago
> I wouldn't put phones as the responsible one so generally. From my experience, phone is an extremely common factor. If you randomly take a peek at any person in the 1st and 2nd world during their "downtime", I bet that you will 99% of the time see them on their phone. Phone have absolutely consumed everything we used to do. I cannot remember seeing a person just sitting on chair staring blankly, they almost always are on their phone or listening to something.
- chasd00 3y ago
  > I cannot remember seeing a person just sitting on chair staring blankly heh, i have to ask, what is so great/healthy/engaging/enlightening about staring blankly? I think anything, reading a book/newspaper, talking to a stranger, petting a dog, would have been better than "staring blankly".
  - bentley 3y ago
    Well, sitting and staring blankly has been socially unusual for decades at least. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBBQdFSvvTE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBBQdFSvvTE That said: I don’t pull out my phone when waiting in line, I don’t usually have a book or newspaper handy, and I often don’t feel like talking with a stranger (though I will sometimes). That leaves me alone with my thoughts. Despite the implication of descriptions like “staring blankly”, though, my mind is absolutely active during those times. Sometimes it’s calm, sometimes it’s running a mile a minute. Maybe I’m daydreaming, maybe I’m replaying a book or movie scene in my head, maybe I’m making plans for the day, maybe I’m debating with myself or thinking philosophical thoughts or trying to work out what I should say in an upcoming meeting. Thinking thoughts is active, and I don’t consider it time wasted. Humans don’t have to be fed stimulation 24/7—the mind is a self‐stimulating organ.
  - anon373839 3y ago
    I wouldn’t argue that staring blankly is helpful in itself. But having time with nothing to engage your attention almost forces you to face your own thoughts and feelings, which many people prefer to avoid. That type of avoidance is at the root of a lot of mental health problems, and people go to therapy to learn how to face their thoughts and feelings head-on.

CraigJPerry 3y ago

>> Before smartphones, people regularly experienced true downtime Was there not a similar argument made as newspapers became commonplace? Before that the same argument had been made for books but newspapers were on another level - they were effectively limitless drugs, affordable and every single day a new one was available. Instead of talking, laughing and joking with the other workers waiting at the bus stop or in the canteen or whatever, instead you had a sea of silent men reading newspapers. I’m not convinced phones are without potential harm, but I’m hesitant to get too worked up about them vs. What’s gone before.

Aerbil313 3y ago
Both other animals and native tribes today spend significant amounts of their day doing nothing. Therefore it’s only logical this is the normal mode of operation of the human brain, with the opposite situation being unhealthy.
seoulmetro 3y ago
No one was reading the newspaper for the entire day. Instead it was a moment of reflection through the words of someone else. Right now phones never end, there is no final page and nothing is reflected upon a second time outside phone time.
- CraigJPerry 3y ago
  You miss the point, before newspapers no one was this distracted from the present. It’s not the magnitude of distraction - a phone obviously offers more opportunity for longer distraction. It was the delta change vs. What distraction existed before.
  - seoulmetro 3y ago
    Of course they were. Stars, clouds, conversations, gardening, chess, etc. These are all distracting from present towards past or future.
Quekid5 3y ago

jstarfish 3y ago

Maybe. I'd suggest phones are also symbolic of the affluence of the western world. We're so wealthy, we don't need to cooperate with anyone else for survival anymore. [For now.] You don't see this shit in El Salvador. Parents don't pay $100 a month so their kids can ignore them and get their life lessons from Reddit. Everyone is miserable because we need each other more than we admit. The kids really do treat each other worse than NPCs in a Westworld LARP. Those who grew up "trolling" (bullying) everyone around them online never learn how to interact with actual people in non-adversarial ways. Then they get bitter, resentful, and violent. Every school shooter that doesn't stick the gun in their mouth at the end cites alienation and loneliness as a factor. Go figure.

wisty 3y ago

I'm going to say there's at least four factors, all related to bad parenting, not that bad parenting is the only cause. The phone as a babysitter is a big one, but also parents on phones / social media. There's also an atomisation of society (fewer extended family and friends, and institutions like church groups). And parents work longer hours. Kids go home and suck on a digital pacifier so their parents can do the same, and those parents haven't got anything else to do. What chance does the kid have?