5 ms·

Can you elaborate on this? From what I can tell, the outcome that you’re speaking of has occurred for the opposite reason. Looking at the data for the US, ther

by Ashken 3y ago

Can you elaborate on this? From what I can tell, the outcome that you’re speaking of has occurred for the opposite reason. Looking at the data for the US, there seems to be an even more exponential curve between 2015-2020, which would imply that these trends could have been further exacerbated by the reduction of government regulation. The same is likely true for the concentration of wealth, the loss in small businesses, disenfranchisement, etc.

WalterBright 3y ago
Do you really believe that government regulation has been reduced?
- jampekka 3y ago
  Regulation and government involvement in economy very much so. This was/is the core of the neoliberal turn.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    Consider all the labor regulations since. All the complexity of the taxes. The design of cars today is completely driven by regulations - for example, the tendency for cars to all look alike comes from regulation of every aspect of them. Regulation has driven a lot of industry out of America, as it made it too expensive to operate here. In what area has government been reduced?
    - Ashken 3y ago
      Education, for sure. In tech, while there are some regulations, I definitely believe that more need to be established, especially regarding the topic of the article. Tech is a bit too loose right now, with the exception of the health industry.
      - WalterBright 3y ago
        > Education, for sure. Are you sure? Hasn't government K-12 spending per student increased far faster than inflation? And how about all that federal money for student loans? Keep in mind that money always comes with strings attached.
    - AlexandrB 3y ago
      > Regulation has driven a lot of industry out of America, as it made it too expensive to operate here. Do you have any sources? I think most offshoring is driven by significantly lower labor costs in other countries. For example, China has a highly controlled economy, but American companies still offshore work there simply because labor is cheaper. Indeed, we've seen some "onshoring" in recent years[1] now that automation is far more prevalent and labor cost is less significant as a portion of operating costs. [1] https://www.engineering.com/story/automation-is-making-onshoring-cool-again https://www.engineering.com/story/automation-is-making-onsho...
      - WalterBright 3y ago
        No, I don't have a specific cite. But the reason for offshoring is always going to be about lower total costs, of which labor is a large component. There are quite a lot of regulations around labor and benefits, along with the NLRB which is very tilted towards the interests of unions. California recently passed a law where the wages of fast food workers are set by some government board.
diob 3y ago
Yes, the reality is we've been in a starve the beast situation for decades in the US. It's a spiral as the bad actors get to say "See, we have X but X doesn't work" leaving out the conditions they've forced on X to cause these deficiencies. Repeat until the X thing is dead or completely toothless.
zerbinxx 3y ago
I think a possible explanation would be that the increasing desire for more government regulation, or at least functional government, runs counter to the world, which is increasingly ruled by inhuman, (even anti-human) forces. This breeds a desperation in people as they realize that humanity is viewed as a resource, not an end in itself, for the inhuman forces (call it capital, technology, whatever) to consume and mold toward their own ends. While the left is obviously more in favor of “big government”, I think it’s easy to forget that conservatives are also perpetually in rebellion against a government they feel has abandoned the goal of protecting the traditional structures they hold dear, while also delegating the role of speech police and moral authority to the dreaded socially liberal wings of Hollywood and Silicon Valley.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  Are you saying that capitalism and technology are inhuman forces? That humans were in some idyllic state before 1800?
  - jampekka 3y ago
    Probably not in 1800, but the post-war "big government" era from about 1950's to 1980's (depending on the area) was relatively idyllic in many places.
    - WalterBright 3y ago
      The government has gotten enormously bigger and more pervasive since then.
      - jampekka 3y ago
        Ok, if you say so.
        WalterBright 3y ago
        Don't take my word for it. Just take a look at any chart of state/local/federal spending.

by Ashken 3y ago

WalterBright 3y ago

Do you really believe that government regulation has been reduced?

jampekka 3y ago
Regulation and government involvement in economy very much so. This was/is the core of the neoliberal turn.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  Consider all the labor regulations since. All the complexity of the taxes. The design of cars today is completely driven by regulations - for example, the tendency for cars to all look alike comes from regulation of every aspect of them. Regulation has driven a lot of industry out of America, as it made it too expensive to operate here. In what area has government been reduced?
  - Ashken 3y ago
    Education, for sure. In tech, while there are some regulations, I definitely believe that more need to be established, especially regarding the topic of the article. Tech is a bit too loose right now, with the exception of the health industry.
    - WalterBright 3y ago
      > Education, for sure. Are you sure? Hasn't government K-12 spending per student increased far faster than inflation? And how about all that federal money for student loans? Keep in mind that money always comes with strings attached.
  - AlexandrB 3y ago
    > Regulation has driven a lot of industry out of America, as it made it too expensive to operate here. Do you have any sources? I think most offshoring is driven by significantly lower labor costs in other countries. For example, China has a highly controlled economy, but American companies still offshore work there simply because labor is cheaper. Indeed, we've seen some "onshoring" in recent years[1] now that automation is far more prevalent and labor cost is less significant as a portion of operating costs. [1] https://www.engineering.com/story/automation-is-making-onshoring-cool-again https://www.engineering.com/story/automation-is-making-onsho...
    - WalterBright 3y ago
      No, I don't have a specific cite. But the reason for offshoring is always going to be about lower total costs, of which labor is a large component. There are quite a lot of regulations around labor and benefits, along with the NLRB which is very tilted towards the interests of unions. California recently passed a law where the wages of fast food workers are set by some government board.

diob 3y ago

Yes, the reality is we've been in a starve the beast situation for decades in the US. It's a spiral as the bad actors get to say "See, we have X but X doesn't work" leaving out the conditions they've forced on X to cause these deficiencies. Repeat until the X thing is dead or completely toothless.

zerbinxx 3y ago

I think a possible explanation would be that the increasing desire for more government regulation, or at least functional government, runs counter to the world, which is increasingly ruled by inhuman, (even anti-human) forces. This breeds a desperation in people as they realize that humanity is viewed as a resource, not an end in itself, for the inhuman forces (call it capital, technology, whatever) to consume and mold toward their own ends. While the left is obviously more in favor of “big government”, I think it’s easy to forget that conservatives are also perpetually in rebellion against a government they feel has abandoned the goal of protecting the traditional structures they hold dear, while also delegating the role of speech police and moral authority to the dreaded socially liberal wings of Hollywood and Silicon Valley.

WalterBright 3y ago
Are you saying that capitalism and technology are inhuman forces? That humans were in some idyllic state before 1800?
- jampekka 3y ago
  Probably not in 1800, but the post-war "big government" era from about 1950's to 1980's (depending on the area) was relatively idyllic in many places.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    The government has gotten enormously bigger and more pervasive since then.
    - jampekka 3y ago
      Ok, if you say so.
      - WalterBright 3y ago
        Don't take my word for it. Just take a look at any chart of state/local/federal spending.