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Tangent on your tangent: I always find it awkward that people name the Wright brothers as the inventors of the airplane, and keep forgetting Otto Lilienthal. T

by w-m 3y ago

Tangent on your tangent: I always find it awkward that people name the Wright brothers as the inventors of the airplane, and keep forgetting Otto Lilienthal. The Wright brothers engineered a control system, that’s nice and all, but pretty boring, iterative work. Lilienthal studied birds, wrote the book on how wings work, produced the first airplanes and was the first person to make well-documented, repeated, successful flights with gliders. In my view these were much more difficult steps and much more important work. Lilienthals life is super interesting, but even his namesake museum in his hometown of Anklam is rather pitiful.

trompetenaccoun 3y ago
Same with Edison and "his" lightbulb, he wasn't actually the first to invent it. He wasn't even the first in his company, that would have been Joseph Swan - as determined by the courts at the time. Swan held the patent and Edison lost the case. Afterwards the two merged their businesses into the 'Edison & Swan United Electric Light Company'. With most great inventions, there usually isn't a single person who came up with them. It's a long process from the first idea to building a working prototype. Lilienthal was definitely one of those great pioneers and it's sad his name isn't as well remembered as that of the Wrights. He was the first in history that we have evidence for to ever fly a glider. The Wright "plane" wasn't anything other than a glider, although they arguably did improve on the concept. Still, it's sad how in the memory of the general public, most of the time there's only a single name for big inventions and it's even the wrong one most of the time.
- andrewflnr 3y ago
  > The Wright "plane" wasn't anything other than a glider... Beg pardon? The Wright brothers are specifically recognized for the first powered airplane. They started with gliders, but had an engine on one of the later versions.
  - trompetenaccoun 3y ago
    That's true but they're not famous for adding the engine or the control system, the general public remembers them for inventing the airplane. Or "flying machine" as they called it back then. But that wasn't invented by them, even the name seems like a translation from German "Flugapparat". Nevertheless the US granted them a patent for the glider. Of course that was before internet and globalization and people didn't get sued for IP violations from across the ocean.
    - andrewflnr 3y ago
      Sounds like you're admitting that you lied for dramatic effect, and are justifying it by the Wrights being famous for something other than their actual, more useful contribution. Please stick to the facts. I'm sure you'd agree these discussions don't need any more BS.
      - trompetenaccoun 3y ago
        No, I do not agree with your insinuation and accusation. They did improve on the concept, I already mentioned that. Improving on and inventing something are two completely different things though. Lilienthal himself did not come up with the idea either, there were others dreaming of flying machines before him and some were even build, he's just the first person to have flown in one. That's why I said "with most great inventions, there usually isn't a single person who came up with them." The Wright Brothers' biggest contribution to flight was in terms of aerodynamics and steering the glider. Adding the engine was arguably the easiest part, but you first had to come up with a glider design giving you enough lift. Even today most people wouldn't be able to do that on their own. Saying the Wright Brothers didn't invent the plane does not take away from those contributions. It simply corrects misinformation and puts them back into a long line of scientists and inventors who all worked on creating what we today know as airplanes.
        andrewflnr 3y ago
        You didn't say they didn't invent the airplane, though, you said their plane was only a glider. Which is false. So why did you say that?
mixmastamyk 3y ago
Also believe the first unassisted powered flight (aka airplane) was by Alberto Santos Dumont.
- Tuna-Fish 3y ago
  "Unassisted" is a pointless qualifier only used to make Dumont win. There is no reason why something that uses a catapult for takeoff does not qualify to be an aircraft. Especially when the Wright brothers plane could fly properly and under control, flying 24 miles, including many turns, a year before Dumont could barely manage a few hundred meters in a nearly straight line and ended his flight in an uncontrolled roll.
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    Let me know the next time you take a flight by catapult or glider and we’ll see how pointless an independent engine is.
    - dev_tty01 3y ago
      The Wright flyers had their own engine. They were not gliders. The Wrights were making long, controlled flights powered by engines years before Dumont. First flights in 1903, first complete circle flight in 1904, and flights of over 20 miles and half an hour in 1905. The 1903 flight did not use a catapult, although several of their 1904 and 1905 flights did. Dumont made a flight of 50 meters in 1906. Dumont's 1906 plane had no ability to do turns, rolls, or banking, useful maneuvers when you take a flight. It was not something that could be considered a usable airplane.
      - mixmastamyk 3y ago
        Not what I meant by independent. Meant that it didn’t need additional power.
        dev_tty01 3y ago
Smoosh 3y ago
Also overlooked: Lawrence Hargrave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Hargrave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Hargrave 'he should be remembered as an important experimenter and inventor, who "probably did as much to bring about the accomplishment of dynamic flight as any other single individual".'
dev_tty01 3y ago
Lilienthal died flying one of his gliders. His wing curvature pressure tables were faulty and the Wright Brothers had to abandon them and build their own wind tunnel to measure and create a set of usable data. That led to their actual success flying. Lilienthal was certainly important and served as inspiration, but it was the Wright's who really did all the invention and engineering to create what could credibly be called an airplane.
- vanderZwan 3y ago
  Yeah, I might have highlighted their later patent war antics at the beginning of this thread, but I also recall reading that the research done by the early Wright Brothers was really impressive. IIRC they were more rigorous in their measurements than other people around the same time, which was part of what lead to their success.

by w-m 3y ago

trompetenaccoun 3y ago

Same with Edison and "his" lightbulb, he wasn't actually the first to invent it. He wasn't even the first in his company, that would have been Joseph Swan - as determined by the courts at the time. Swan held the patent and Edison lost the case. Afterwards the two merged their businesses into the 'Edison & Swan United Electric Light Company'. With most great inventions, there usually isn't a single person who came up with them. It's a long process from the first idea to building a working prototype. Lilienthal was definitely one of those great pioneers and it's sad his name isn't as well remembered as that of the Wrights. He was the first in history that we have evidence for to ever fly a glider. The Wright "plane" wasn't anything other than a glider, although they arguably did improve on the concept. Still, it's sad how in the memory of the general public, most of the time there's only a single name for big inventions and it's even the wrong one most of the time.

andrewflnr 3y ago
> The Wright "plane" wasn't anything other than a glider... Beg pardon? The Wright brothers are specifically recognized for the first powered airplane. They started with gliders, but had an engine on one of the later versions.
- trompetenaccoun 3y ago
  That's true but they're not famous for adding the engine or the control system, the general public remembers them for inventing the airplane. Or "flying machine" as they called it back then. But that wasn't invented by them, even the name seems like a translation from German "Flugapparat". Nevertheless the US granted them a patent for the glider. Of course that was before internet and globalization and people didn't get sued for IP violations from across the ocean.
  - andrewflnr 3y ago
    Sounds like you're admitting that you lied for dramatic effect, and are justifying it by the Wrights being famous for something other than their actual, more useful contribution. Please stick to the facts. I'm sure you'd agree these discussions don't need any more BS.
    - trompetenaccoun 3y ago
      No, I do not agree with your insinuation and accusation. They did improve on the concept, I already mentioned that. Improving on and inventing something are two completely different things though. Lilienthal himself did not come up with the idea either, there were others dreaming of flying machines before him and some were even build, he's just the first person to have flown in one. That's why I said "with most great inventions, there usually isn't a single person who came up with them." The Wright Brothers' biggest contribution to flight was in terms of aerodynamics and steering the glider. Adding the engine was arguably the easiest part, but you first had to come up with a glider design giving you enough lift. Even today most people wouldn't be able to do that on their own. Saying the Wright Brothers didn't invent the plane does not take away from those contributions. It simply corrects misinformation and puts them back into a long line of scientists and inventors who all worked on creating what we today know as airplanes.
      - andrewflnr 3y ago
        You didn't say they didn't invent the airplane, though, you said their plane was only a glider. Which is false. So why did you say that?

mixmastamyk 3y ago

Also believe the first unassisted powered flight (aka airplane) was by Alberto Santos Dumont.

Tuna-Fish 3y ago
"Unassisted" is a pointless qualifier only used to make Dumont win. There is no reason why something that uses a catapult for takeoff does not qualify to be an aircraft. Especially when the Wright brothers plane could fly properly and under control, flying 24 miles, including many turns, a year before Dumont could barely manage a few hundred meters in a nearly straight line and ended his flight in an uncontrolled roll.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  Let me know the next time you take a flight by catapult or glider and we’ll see how pointless an independent engine is.
  - dev_tty01 3y ago
    The Wright flyers had their own engine. They were not gliders. The Wrights were making long, controlled flights powered by engines years before Dumont. First flights in 1903, first complete circle flight in 1904, and flights of over 20 miles and half an hour in 1905. The 1903 flight did not use a catapult, although several of their 1904 and 1905 flights did. Dumont made a flight of 50 meters in 1906. Dumont's 1906 plane had no ability to do turns, rolls, or banking, useful maneuvers when you take a flight. It was not something that could be considered a usable airplane.
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      Not what I meant by independent. Meant that it didn’t need additional power.
      - dev_tty01 3y ago

Smoosh 3y ago

Also overlooked: Lawrence Hargrave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Hargrave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Hargrave 'he should be remembered as an important experimenter and inventor, who "probably did as much to bring about the accomplishment of dynamic flight as any other single individual".'

dev_tty01 3y ago

Lilienthal died flying one of his gliders. His wing curvature pressure tables were faulty and the Wright Brothers had to abandon them and build their own wind tunnel to measure and create a set of usable data. That led to their actual success flying. Lilienthal was certainly important and served as inspiration, but it was the Wright's who really did all the invention and engineering to create what could credibly be called an airplane.

vanderZwan 3y ago
Yeah, I might have highlighted their later patent war antics at the beginning of this thread, but I also recall reading that the research done by the early Wright Brothers was really impressive. IIRC they were more rigorous in their measurements than other people around the same time, which was part of what lead to their success.