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Could you explain? I think we’re having a different discussion than the million dollar predator drones that shot missiles at western Asia from a mile up. And to

by bbor 3y ago

Could you explain? I think we’re having a different discussion than the million dollar predator drones that shot missiles at western Asia from a mile up. And to say that defending against ISIS/Houthi/Etc. drones is in any way similar to the experience Ukraine and Russia are getting seems wrong. But I’m probably misunderstanding? In general I’m not 100% convinced by “they use drones so they’re better with them” but it’s plausible. We’re also involved with the Ukrainian side, to say the least, so I imagine we’re getting some detailed intel on their effectiveness and shortcomings.

happytiger 3y ago
America doesn’t lack combat experience with small drones. > The fighting in Ukraine has provided "reinforcement and validation" of what US troops have learned about drones in the Middle East, Gainey said at the conference, echoing Army leaders who say the drone war in Ukraine is influencing their planning — particularly for how to counter the one-way attack drones that Russia has used widely. > "In some cases, yes, what we're sending to Ukraine are also going to fit into our future plans," Douglas Bush, the assistant secretary of the Army for acquisition, logistics, and technology, said at a press conference in early August. Further: > "There's no one silver bullet. There's no one system that we can call out and say, 'This is a system that's going to defeat every threat,'" Parent told Insider. Source: https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-ukraine-fighting-drone-war-us-military-was-waiting-for-2023-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-ukraine-fighting-dron... The truth is that there is no “drone warfare” only a new class of military tools that resemble drones and are built on drone-esque platforms. They come on the sea, they come by land and they come by air, and they can be millions of dollars or 3500-5000 bucks (which is utterly nothing for US military spending) and built of cardboard like this one: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/09/13/cardboard-drone-vendor-retools-software-based-on-ukraine-war-hacks/ https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/09/13/cardboard-drone-v... They are using Ukraine as a providing ground for anti-drone technology for sure as there have been many reports of directed energy weapons in Ukraine and Israel as of late. There are also sea-based systems: https://www.newsweek.com/taiwan-drone-sea-china-attack-laser-war-1840662 https://www.newsweek.com/taiwan-drone-sea-china-attack-laser... So definitely we are in the drone warfare period and those lessons are getting learned. Have been since 2013 to 2016 when we had initial reports of drones on the battlefield and reactions in military planning discussions. With regards to the idea, that experience is the sole predictor of Battlefield success, I would urge the original poster of that comment to read a few history books.
- bbor 3y ago
  Thanks for the detailed response and interesting links - I absolutely see what you’re saying. People like you are why hacker news is hard to quit!
jandrewrogers 3y ago
The US has decades of intensive research, development, and operational experience with of drones at every scale and for every mission. This ranges from the multi-million dollar predator drones you are thinking of to the dirt-cheap disposable drones used by infantry units that are basically just higher quality versions of what is being used in Ukraine. US military has been preparing for this for a long time and has a lot of real-world experience with it. I think people have already forgotten that many of the early small-format drone capabilities used in Ukraine were provided by the US. An issue is that many of these types of drone systems developed by the US are export controlled, particularly the sensors and electronics, which limits the types available to Ukraine. Much of the equipment given to Ukraine by the US is obsolete or downgraded prior to delivery. Ukraine and Russia are speed-running drone warfare that the US has been trying to perfect for decades. The US military has solutions to particular drone warfare problems that Ukraine/Russia have not yet solved.
- riku_iki 3y ago
  I see it very differently: - Ukraine's drones capabilities were built internally using consumer grade hardware - US tried to supply some cutting edge military grade drones(switchblade 300/600), but there is no much reports about them, and program has been canceled since then, I speculate those drones were having significant issues My suspicion is that US small combat drones programs are weak and ineffective.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > US tried to supply some cutting edge military grade drones(switchblade 300/600) “Tried”? > but there is no much reports about them, There are lots of reports about them. > and program has been canceled since then US acquisition of the anti-personnel Switchblade 300 was cancelled recently, the anti-armor 600 was stepped up, both for deliveries to Ukraine and for deployment with US forces on a wide scale. And, yes, the cancellation seems largely due to experience in Ukraine and the superiority of cheaper, adapted-from-consumer-models drones for anti-personnel use, but its important to note that's not an absence of combat experience—the 300 was rush developed and deployed to combat in Afghanistan in the early 2010s, and used extrnsively there. This is just the learning that happens with different approaches guided by different constraints finding different solutions.
hughesjj 3y ago
I mean not as small as a DJI mini but these have been around for over a decade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroVironment_Switchblade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroVironment_Switchblade

by bbor 3y ago

happytiger 3y ago

America doesn’t lack combat experience with small drones. > The fighting in Ukraine has provided "reinforcement and validation" of what US troops have learned about drones in the Middle East, Gainey said at the conference, echoing Army leaders who say the drone war in Ukraine is influencing their planning — particularly for how to counter the one-way attack drones that Russia has used widely. > "In some cases, yes, what we're sending to Ukraine are also going to fit into our future plans," Douglas Bush, the assistant secretary of the Army for acquisition, logistics, and technology, said at a press conference in early August. Further: > "There's no one silver bullet. There's no one system that we can call out and say, 'This is a system that's going to defeat every threat,'" Parent told Insider. Source: https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-ukraine-fighting-drone-war-us-military-was-waiting-for-2023-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-ukraine-fighting-dron... The truth is that there is no “drone warfare” only a new class of military tools that resemble drones and are built on drone-esque platforms. They come on the sea, they come by land and they come by air, and they can be millions of dollars or 3500-5000 bucks (which is utterly nothing for US military spending) and built of cardboard like this one: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/09/13/cardboard-drone-vendor-retools-software-based-on-ukraine-war-hacks/ https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/09/13/cardboard-drone-v... They are using Ukraine as a providing ground for anti-drone technology for sure as there have been many reports of directed energy weapons in Ukraine and Israel as of late. There are also sea-based systems: https://www.newsweek.com/taiwan-drone-sea-china-attack-laser-war-1840662 https://www.newsweek.com/taiwan-drone-sea-china-attack-laser... So definitely we are in the drone warfare period and those lessons are getting learned. Have been since 2013 to 2016 when we had initial reports of drones on the battlefield and reactions in military planning discussions. With regards to the idea, that experience is the sole predictor of Battlefield success, I would urge the original poster of that comment to read a few history books.

bbor 3y ago
Thanks for the detailed response and interesting links - I absolutely see what you’re saying. People like you are why hacker news is hard to quit!

jandrewrogers 3y ago

The US has decades of intensive research, development, and operational experience with of drones at every scale and for every mission. This ranges from the multi-million dollar predator drones you are thinking of to the dirt-cheap disposable drones used by infantry units that are basically just higher quality versions of what is being used in Ukraine. US military has been preparing for this for a long time and has a lot of real-world experience with it. I think people have already forgotten that many of the early small-format drone capabilities used in Ukraine were provided by the US. An issue is that many of these types of drone systems developed by the US are export controlled, particularly the sensors and electronics, which limits the types available to Ukraine. Much of the equipment given to Ukraine by the US is obsolete or downgraded prior to delivery. Ukraine and Russia are speed-running drone warfare that the US has been trying to perfect for decades. The US military has solutions to particular drone warfare problems that Ukraine/Russia have not yet solved.

riku_iki 3y ago
I see it very differently: - Ukraine's drones capabilities were built internally using consumer grade hardware - US tried to supply some cutting edge military grade drones(switchblade 300/600), but there is no much reports about them, and program has been canceled since then, I speculate those drones were having significant issues My suspicion is that US small combat drones programs are weak and ineffective.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > US tried to supply some cutting edge military grade drones(switchblade 300/600) “Tried”? > but there is no much reports about them, There are lots of reports about them. > and program has been canceled since then US acquisition of the anti-personnel Switchblade 300 was cancelled recently, the anti-armor 600 was stepped up, both for deliveries to Ukraine and for deployment with US forces on a wide scale. And, yes, the cancellation seems largely due to experience in Ukraine and the superiority of cheaper, adapted-from-consumer-models drones for anti-personnel use, but its important to note that's not an absence of combat experience—the 300 was rush developed and deployed to combat in Afghanistan in the early 2010s, and used extrnsively there. This is just the learning that happens with different approaches guided by different constraints finding different solutions.

hughesjj 3y ago

I mean not as small as a DJI mini but these have been around for over a decade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroVironment_Switchblade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroVironment_Switchblade