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> We have basically pure machine code running our web in wasm. It's utterly unintelligible. Whenever technology changes there's always an argument against the

> We have basically pure machine code running our web in wasm. It's utterly unintelligible. Whenever technology changes there's always an argument against the new thing. In this case, I don't think that argument has merit. We've been running various flavors of compiled code since (almost) the beginning of computers, and the merits and drawbacks of that approach are well understood.

jauntywundrkind 3y ago
The web has been distinct & unique & closer to "the language of the gods" for being much better, more pro-user than the old industrial-computing compiled ways. Many webdevs got their start from view-source (and many would have been lost to computing if we were just another compiled blackbox). The aliveness of the web contrasts to the dead programming variety. The erosion of this aliveness & legibility has been mourned, and should be. It is worth fighting for the user. I don't think your argument has merit, that merits can be ignored because this is how computers always used to be. Wasm's return to the dark times of industrialized blackbox computing will cut off the best users from the joy of being closer to the machine that they had on the web, and that return to darkness is a sad plight for mankind, even if that's how it always used to be. I treasure the light of the open alive web, and hope somehow it can survive this voyage into shadow.
- ryukafalz 3y ago
  We can and should provide a "view source" equivalent for native code as well. Package managers like Guix that know where to find the source and how to build it are a good step forward there. Text formats can be minified and obfuscated, binary formats can include mechanisms to see and experiment with the source. It's all about the tooling you have, what that tooling makes easy, and what it makes hard.
- c-cube 3y ago
  And what, pray tell, does view-source look like in typical SPA? Even in the debugger (if the beginner knows what that is), what will the minified bundle of 50 libraries look like?
  - jauntywundrkind 3y ago
    Sure, we can Whataboutism the good to death. There's so much Whataboutism to find here. Does that Whataboutism wet blanket mean it should be that way? Does it mean we should make the situation even more infernal and bad?
- cercatrova 3y ago
  Interesting. I knew another user who spoke similarly to you about the web (often exaggerating of the "wonders of the web" while WASM and similar technologies were the signaling of the "dark times"), are you an alt of rektide? It seems like they stopped posting just as your account was created, which leads me to believe so. Just a curious observation, as they too were on threads related to the web.

jauntywundrkind 3y ago

The web has been distinct & unique & closer to "the language of the gods" for being much better, more pro-user than the old industrial-computing compiled ways. Many webdevs got their start from view-source (and many would have been lost to computing if we were just another compiled blackbox). The aliveness of the web contrasts to the dead programming variety. The erosion of this aliveness & legibility has been mourned, and should be. It is worth fighting for the user. I don't think your argument has merit, that merits can be ignored because this is how computers always used to be. Wasm's return to the dark times of industrialized blackbox computing will cut off the best users from the joy of being closer to the machine that they had on the web, and that return to darkness is a sad plight for mankind, even if that's how it always used to be. I treasure the light of the open alive web, and hope somehow it can survive this voyage into shadow.

ryukafalz 3y ago
We can and should provide a "view source" equivalent for native code as well. Package managers like Guix that know where to find the source and how to build it are a good step forward there. Text formats can be minified and obfuscated, binary formats can include mechanisms to see and experiment with the source. It's all about the tooling you have, what that tooling makes easy, and what it makes hard.
c-cube 3y ago
And what, pray tell, does view-source look like in typical SPA? Even in the debugger (if the beginner knows what that is), what will the minified bundle of 50 libraries look like?
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  Sure, we can Whataboutism the good to death. There's so much Whataboutism to find here. Does that Whataboutism wet blanket mean it should be that way? Does it mean we should make the situation even more infernal and bad?
cercatrova 3y ago
Interesting. I knew another user who spoke similarly to you about the web (often exaggerating of the "wonders of the web" while WASM and similar technologies were the signaling of the "dark times"), are you an alt of rektide? It seems like they stopped posting just as your account was created, which leads me to believe so. Just a curious observation, as they too were on threads related to the web.