5 ms·

The fact that this is an actual concern is wild and shows the depth of Boeing's problems.

miketery 3y ago
I spoke to someone who works there about a year ago. I was trying to gauge how an insider viewed the Max problem related to the auto trim issue which caused two airplanes [1][2] to crash, killing 346 people. This was shortly after watching the documentary Downfall: The Case Against Boeing [3]. The ignorance and non acceptance of fault made me cringe. I won't go into the details, but this wasn't a freak accident this was due to human decisions. They cut corners on how to modify an aircraft to compete with Airbus, and then doubled down to not pass down training to pilots on their hack of a fix, since it would be an increase in costs on their customers (i.e. the plane becomes more expensive to operate due to extra training for pilots). I am doing my outmost to avoid any new planes from Boeing (higher risk with new airplanes). I've also simply started flying less. The Boeing fiasco is what 2nd world / 3rd world corruption looks like in the west. profit interests above safety, and regulatory capture of the FAA. Also anti competitive or anti free trade practices by the US Department of Commerce [4]. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Flight_610 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Flight_610 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_302 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_302 3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downfall:_The_Case_Against_Boeing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downfall:_The_Case_Against_Boe... 4 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSeries_dumping_petition_by_Boeing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSeries_dumping_petition_by_Bo...
- spacemark 3y ago
  All valid points, but I wonder if you've overshot your response to this (very slight) increase of risk to your personal safety. The statistical safety of aviation is the best it has ever been - 2023 set yet another record low for commercial aviation deaths and injuries. Your automobile trip to the grocery store is far riskier.
  - r00fus 3y ago
    Current stats do not predict future outcomes. Especially since the FAA and transport dept are getting more corrupt/captured as time progresses.
    - rand846633 3y ago
      There is a strong correlation between current state and future outcomes. Especially with physical objects that are, in average a decade old.
  - kmeisthax 3y ago
    Miketery isn't trying to rationally adjust their risk profile based on available statistics. They are trying to punish Boeing for being a corrupt institution that corrupts other institutions. It doesn't matter how good the safety numbers are if any player is able to cheat and blame their safety problems on someone else.
  - Consultant32452 3y ago
    >Your automobile trip to the grocery store is far riskier. I feel it's important to provide complete information. Flying is safer per mile traveled than driving. Driving is safer on a per-trip basis. So if you compare your trip to the grocery store to your flight to visit extended family, the trip to your grocery store is safer. But if you compare 10,000 miles of driving back and forth to the grocery store over many trips vs a single 10,000 mile flight, the flight is safer.
    - nyc640 3y ago
      > Driving is safer on a per-trip basis. You can’t make this blanket statement and I would bet on average it’s the opposite still. - Flying in the US is on average ~750x safer per mile than driving according to 2000-2010 data (it’s likely even larger a difference in the modern era). - I would venture to guess that most US flights are in the 1000-2000 mile range and most US car trips are easily more than the equivalent 2-3 miles. - Most fatalities from flying occur during takeoff and landing, so longer flights are actually safer per mile. Relating this back to the thread, the risk of catastrophic failure from your choice (or non-choice) of airframe only really affects the off-ground danger and not the higher danger you face on a taxiway/runway. - All of these numbers are based purely on fatalities but I’m guessing your definition of “safety” includes being maimed or otherwise seriously injured. You have several orders of magnitude higher chance of being seriously injured in a car crash compared to flying since accidents in aviation are much more likely to end in death.
duxup 3y ago
I don’t disagree but generally I would avoid using “ The fact that this is an actual concern”. People are prone to being concerned about a lot of things that aren’t a real risk to them. People aren’t logical.
- MOARDONGZPLZ 3y ago
  I read “actual” as modifying “concern” to the extent that it is a concern about something that carries real risk, not a concern that isn’t a real risk.
bithaze 3y ago
It's a domain registered yesterday and an account registered an hour ago expressly to post the website, so the barrier to entry isn't particularly high.
mandibles 3y ago
It would have been great if Boeing had focused on technical excellence instead of financial engineering for the last two decades.
ghaff 3y ago
There is also a non-zero number of people who are absolutely terrified of flying a plane, any plane.

I spoke to someone who works there about a year ago. I was trying to gauge how an insider viewed the Max problem related to the auto trim issue which caused two airplanes [1][2] to crash, killing 346 people. This was shortly after watching the documentary Downfall: The Case Against Boeing [3]. The ignorance and non acceptance of fault made me cringe. I won't go into the details, but this wasn't a freak accident this was due to human decisions. They cut corners on how to modify an aircraft to compete with Airbus, and then doubled down to not pass down training to pilots on their hack of a fix, since it would be an increase in costs on their customers (i.e. the plane becomes more expensive to operate due to extra training for pilots). I am doing my outmost to avoid any new planes from Boeing (higher risk with new airplanes). I've also simply started flying less. The Boeing fiasco is what 2nd world / 3rd world corruption looks like in the west. profit interests above safety, and regulatory capture of the FAA. Also anti competitive or anti free trade practices by the US Department of Commerce [4]. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Flight_610 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Flight_610 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_302 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_302 3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downfall:_The_Case_Against_Boeing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downfall:_The_Case_Against_Boe... 4 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSeries_dumping_petition_by_Boeing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSeries_dumping_petition_by_Bo...

spacemark 3y ago
All valid points, but I wonder if you've overshot your response to this (very slight) increase of risk to your personal safety. The statistical safety of aviation is the best it has ever been - 2023 set yet another record low for commercial aviation deaths and injuries. Your automobile trip to the grocery store is far riskier.
- r00fus 3y ago
  Current stats do not predict future outcomes. Especially since the FAA and transport dept are getting more corrupt/captured as time progresses.
  - rand846633 3y ago
    There is a strong correlation between current state and future outcomes. Especially with physical objects that are, in average a decade old.
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  Miketery isn't trying to rationally adjust their risk profile based on available statistics. They are trying to punish Boeing for being a corrupt institution that corrupts other institutions. It doesn't matter how good the safety numbers are if any player is able to cheat and blame their safety problems on someone else.
- Consultant32452 3y ago
  >Your automobile trip to the grocery store is far riskier. I feel it's important to provide complete information. Flying is safer per mile traveled than driving. Driving is safer on a per-trip basis. So if you compare your trip to the grocery store to your flight to visit extended family, the trip to your grocery store is safer. But if you compare 10,000 miles of driving back and forth to the grocery store over many trips vs a single 10,000 mile flight, the flight is safer.
  - nyc640 3y ago
    > Driving is safer on a per-trip basis. You can’t make this blanket statement and I would bet on average it’s the opposite still. - Flying in the US is on average ~750x safer per mile than driving according to 2000-2010 data (it’s likely even larger a difference in the modern era). - I would venture to guess that most US flights are in the 1000-2000 mile range and most US car trips are easily more than the equivalent 2-3 miles. - Most fatalities from flying occur during takeoff and landing, so longer flights are actually safer per mile. Relating this back to the thread, the risk of catastrophic failure from your choice (or non-choice) of airframe only really affects the off-ground danger and not the higher danger you face on a taxiway/runway. - All of these numbers are based purely on fatalities but I’m guessing your definition of “safety” includes being maimed or otherwise seriously injured. You have several orders of magnitude higher chance of being seriously injured in a car crash compared to flying since accidents in aviation are much more likely to end in death.

duxup 3y ago

I don’t disagree but generally I would avoid using “ The fact that this is an actual concern”. People are prone to being concerned about a lot of things that aren’t a real risk to them. People aren’t logical.

MOARDONGZPLZ 3y ago
I read “actual” as modifying “concern” to the extent that it is a concern about something that carries real risk, not a concern that isn’t a real risk.

bithaze 3y ago

It's a domain registered yesterday and an account registered an hour ago expressly to post the website, so the barrier to entry isn't particularly high.

mandibles 3y ago

It would have been great if Boeing had focused on technical excellence instead of financial engineering for the last two decades.

ghaff 3y ago

There is also a non-zero number of people who are absolutely terrified of flying a plane, any plane.