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Hahaha - what a BS argument! And if I have a MacBook, for instance, do I have a choice in downloading the app from the iPad store or the iPhone store? No, ther

Hahaha - what a BS argument! And if I have a MacBook, for instance, do I have a choice in downloading the app from the iPad store or the iPhone store? No, there’s just one for my device! And do I have a choice to use a non Apple App Store? No! So while there might be multiple stores for Apple, there’s only one for my device from Apple It’s like arguing that any monopoly isn’t actually a monopoly because the company has multiple physical locations. But the consumer has one choice, constrained by geography I’m no lawyer but this is clearly a Hail Mary, perhaps suggested by some law firm to get a little more money out of Apple

cassianoleal 3y ago
> And if I have a MacBook, for instance, do I have a choice in downloading the app from the MacBook store or the iPhone store? No, there’s one for my device! If it's an Apple Silicon MacBook, yes. It's actually the same App Store application but it can be used to download mobile apps. I think in this case the line being drawn at what frontend is used to interact with the stores is splitting hairs. I agree with the rest of your arguments.
- AniseAbyss 3y ago
  [dead]
- obmelvin 3y ago
  I tried to do this recently to download some apps to my Macbook - a few 3rd party apps and the new Journal app from Apple. As far as I could tell, only some apps are directly installable on the laptop, despite this claim? It seemed like I basically needed to sideload the file directly from my phone to the computer. I tried googling and chatgpt, but would love to hear that I missed something!
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    Developers have the option to disable iOS apps from being installed on Apple silicon macs. Unfortunately most 'big' apps just disable this for whatever reason. I don't believe you can 'sideload' unsupported ipas from an iOS device any more.
    - kmeisthax 3y ago
      The reason why everyone disabled their iPhone & iPad apps on macOS is because nobody wants to license their software for unified purchases. Either because they want to charge different prices for each platform (which means they have to sell them separately and charge you twice), or because they're a streaming app with different licensing requirements between mobile and desktop. This isn't even exclusive to Apple. When Microsoft added Android app support to Windows 11, they also updated the Amazon App Store version of Minecraft so that it'd only work on a Fire tablet, because they want you to buy the more expensive native port. The alternative would be getting rid of the $7 tablet version and making everyone pay $30 for Minecraft just in case someone wants to port their licenses over to Windows.
      - turquoisevar 3y ago
        I believe the reason behind it is more petty or silly (pick you poison). A lot of bigger developers, especially streaming services, got spooked by the fact that users can inspect the .app bundle and look inside, with assets easy to copy. In response a lot of big developers disabled the option because I guess security through obscurity sounds appealing.
        kmeisthax 3y ago
        Most users on macOS aren't opening bundles. Even if that was part of the threat model, Apple doesn't encrypt bundle resources; only the binaries[0]. Before they got rid of iTunes, you actually used to be able to download IPAs through it to sync them onto your iPhone[1]. The IPA files were right on the drive and could be opened by anyone. The underlying interfaces to do this still exist and you can still get IPAs today using Apple Configurator 2, iMazing[2], or straight off the Apple CDN[3]. [0] https://forums.developer.apple.com/forums/thread/13486 https://forums.developer.apple.com/forums/thread/13486 This is also why you can't run iOS apps on unsigned macOS - the secure enclave will refuse to decrypt apps unless the currently booted OS is Apple-signed, with the usual integrity protections in place. [1] https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/298391/how-do-i-download-an-ios-app-ipa-file-to-my-mac-after-itunes-12-7-update https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/298391/how-do-i-do... [2] https://imazing.com/guides/how-to-manage-apps-without-itunes https://imazing.com/guides/how-to-manage-apps-without-itunes Also, shoutout to iMazing in general, it's a really useful tool for playing around with device backups. [3] I can't find the citation for this but I swear I saw a blog post that told you how to do this.
stetrain 3y ago
You can use any App Store or downloaded app on your MacBook. For instance I have Steam on mine which is basically the definition of third party App Store. For iPhones and iPads you're correct though.
- theturtletalks 3y ago
  Except Apple doesn’t let every app do that. They effectively decide which company wins while blocking all others. The same argument was made against Google since they charged a lower Play Store commission for Spotify.
  - Terretta 3y ago
    This is categorically not true. 1) You can run every Mac app sold by a third party store that's designed to run on your Mac. 2) Anyone can make a Mac app store. The only apps Apple blocks from arbitrary sources are known malware. Even that can be turned off if you're either a masochist or a malware researcher. PS. See also the wonderful SetApp store: https://setapp.com/ https://setapp.com/ Many apps in Apple's app store are alternatively available through SetApp. For anything in SetApp, I get it there.
    - theturtletalks 3y ago
      Nice straw man there. I wasn’t talking about the Mac App Store which is not even the target of anti-trust investigations. Macs allow you to install apps from anywhere. It’s the iOS App Store that doesn’t allow apps to be app marketplaces within. Setapp is a subscription service, not an app marketplace.
      - Terretta 3y ago
        You were talking Mac. > Setapp is a subscription service, not an app marketplace That's a really weird way to draw that line. I go there, goods are marketed to me, I pay money to use them. That's the definition of a market and the site and its desktop app are a marketplace. Unless you're arguing that if Apple finished transitioning the iOS app marketplace to purely subscription, it's no longer a marketplace. That would be a really unusual stance.
jevoten 3y ago
> But the consumer has one choice, constrained by geography Even if their choice wasn't so constrained, the choice between shopping at the Walmart next door, or the Walmart down the road, is not very helpful. It would have been laughable if the Northern Securities trust [1] had argued they were not a monopoly because consumers could choose between multiple railways (all owned by Northern Securities). In fact, it would have been an argument in favor that they are a monopoly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Securities_Co._v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Securities_Co._v._Uni...
bastardoperator 3y ago
I download all my apps on my MacBook from brew/cask. I choose not to use the app store. I don't put my faith in corporations, but I'm also not putting the security of my phone in the hands of a 3rd party app store either.
- d1sxeyes 3y ago
  Your laptop, however, is fair game?
  - bastardoperator 3y ago
    Brew has security audits and mechanisms in place to prevent bad actors. I trust OSS volunteers more than I trust corporations, does that make sense?
    - jonhohle 3y ago
      Let me introduce you to the NPM team!
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Dr4kn 3y ago
      If 3rd party appstores are allowed what stops people from having an open source one?
itake 3y ago
> And do I have a choice to use a non Apple App Store? No! I use Steam and Google Chrome on my Macbook. These include separate software storefronts.
lumb63 3y ago
I agree with your position regarding Apple’s statement being bogus. That said, I don’t understand the monopoly comparison. Complaining there is only an Apple App Store is like buying a Ford and complaining Chevy parts don’t fit. Or a Samsung dishwasher only accepts Samsung parts. Or a PC only accepts the user’s password. Or a lock only accepts one key. Or a pet fish cannot fly. If you buy or use a product that has constraints, you will be subject to those constraints. If you do not want to be subject to those constraints, do not buy or use those products. The people who argue for antitrust action against Apple seem to badly misunderstand anti-trust, at least compared to my own understanding. For instance, the above poster says “if I have a MacBook” - the fact that there are other products for consumers to buy besides MacBooks, without the constraints of a MacBook, is testament to the fact that Apple’s position is not monopolistic.
- dpkonofa 3y ago
  Are you a lawyer, by chance? Because this is the exact argument I keep making and the part that I really don't understand at all at the anti-Apple positions people take. If they were truly a monopoly, I'd be all for breaking it up but they're really not and I don't see how this falls into that definition for exactly the reasons you've stated.
- tommica 3y ago
  > Complaining there is only an Apple App Store is like buying a Ford and complaining Chevy parts don’t fit Isn't a more apt comparison be that Ford does not allow Chevy to make and sell parts that fit to one of their vehicles.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
    Nintendo's store is the only one available on a Switch. That is almost a congruent comparison.
    - tommica 3y ago
      Good point, and maybe that should scrutinized in the same way
almatia 3y ago
[dead]
dwaite 3y ago
> And do I have a choice to use a non Apple App Store? No! On Mac? There's many of them, the one which springs to mind most quickly being Steam.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Terretta 3y ago
> while there might be multiple stores for Apple, there’s only one for my device from Apple Not strictly true. I can choose to shop for and run certain iPad apps on my M-series Mac, including apps that have separate Mac and iPad versions. (Sometimes I prefer the mobile version.)
firecall 3y ago
Of course it’s BS! Apples lawyers are just trying to shake the foundations of the case by pointing out any inaccuracies that they can. Standard practice I would guess, and not really news worthy in and of itself :-)
turquoisevar 3y ago
> Hahaha - what a BS argument! As much as it sounds like a BS argument to you, the argument isn’t actually of Apple’s making. I don’t blame you for thinking otherwise though, it’s mainly poor reporting by Reuters and subsequently 9to5 that fails to explain this. The EU was first to look at the App Stores separately to determine how many users each store had and if they’d fall under the DMA, primarily driven by the idea that each OS has its own functionality and limitations and different purposes. I’ll owe you a citation because I don’t have it on hand, but if memory serves me right iOS and its App Store came out as the only one with sufficient EU users. This was undesirable from the EU’s standpoint as it meant that they weren’t able to regulate the other OSs/App Stored so the EU reversed course and started treating them as one and the same. Cue Apple, who now appeal this finding, and argue that they are in fact separate. But as said above, that argument isn’t of Apple’s making, that’s how the EU saw it initially as well and how they started their threshold tests. > And if I have a MacBook, for instance, do I have a choice in downloading the app from the iPad store or the iPhone store? No, there’s just one for my device! This is not really a relevant argument, as it suggests that storefronts only exist as separate storefronts if you can download from it. The Google Play store is definitely a different store than the Apple App Store, but you can’t download from it. That said, on Apple Silicon MacBooks you can definitely download apps from the iPhone and iPad App Store. > And do I have a choice to use a non Apple App Store? No! On the MacBook? Yes, definitely. You can use Steam for example, or no store, or SetApp, etc, etc. > So while there might be multiple stores for Apple, there’s only one for my device from Apple Again, opinion on the argument notwithstanding, this is a non sequitur. Whether you can only use one store on your device says little about it and how Apple’s App Stores are separate. There are actually some decent arguments to be made that Apple’s App Stores are not separate, but I don’t think this is one of them. > It’s like arguing that any monopoly isn’t actually a monopoly because the company has multiple physical locations. But the consumer has one choice, constrained by geography This is not a good analogy, because monopoly and monopoly powers are not analogous to running multiple stores. You can run multiple stores, say under two different brands or one for consumers and one for business customers and still be a monopoly for example. > I’m no lawyer but this is clearly a Hail Mary, perhaps suggested by some law firm to get a little more money out of Apple I used to be one in a former life, specialized in EU law and other international law, and for better or for worse this is not a Hail Mary. It’s actually a pretty solid argument within the context of the DMA because of the way DMA determines gatekeeper status (which was why the EU originally looked at the OSs and storefronts separately). That said, I think there are some bigger issues with the DMA and how it’s applied, suggesting that the EU is bending some of the regulations to target specific companies and services beyond plausible deniability. We’ll have to see how those shake out in court, because that’s generally a no-no. I expect some degree of compliance and some degree of long legal proceedings to get some clear boundaries set for both companies like Apple as well as the EU. The latter will then try to amend the legislation in an attempt to achieve their goal and the cycle will start over. With some luck by 2030 the dust has settled and everyone knows what they’re up against.

cassianoleal 3y ago

> And if I have a MacBook, for instance, do I have a choice in downloading the app from the MacBook store or the iPhone store? No, there’s one for my device! If it's an Apple Silicon MacBook, yes. It's actually the same App Store application but it can be used to download mobile apps. I think in this case the line being drawn at what frontend is used to interact with the stores is splitting hairs. I agree with the rest of your arguments.

AniseAbyss 3y ago
[dead]
obmelvin 3y ago
I tried to do this recently to download some apps to my Macbook - a few 3rd party apps and the new Journal app from Apple. As far as I could tell, only some apps are directly installable on the laptop, despite this claim? It seemed like I basically needed to sideload the file directly from my phone to the computer. I tried googling and chatgpt, but would love to hear that I missed something!
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  Developers have the option to disable iOS apps from being installed on Apple silicon macs. Unfortunately most 'big' apps just disable this for whatever reason. I don't believe you can 'sideload' unsupported ipas from an iOS device any more.
  - kmeisthax 3y ago
    The reason why everyone disabled their iPhone & iPad apps on macOS is because nobody wants to license their software for unified purchases. Either because they want to charge different prices for each platform (which means they have to sell them separately and charge you twice), or because they're a streaming app with different licensing requirements between mobile and desktop. This isn't even exclusive to Apple. When Microsoft added Android app support to Windows 11, they also updated the Amazon App Store version of Minecraft so that it'd only work on a Fire tablet, because they want you to buy the more expensive native port. The alternative would be getting rid of the $7 tablet version and making everyone pay $30 for Minecraft just in case someone wants to port their licenses over to Windows.
    - turquoisevar 3y ago
      I believe the reason behind it is more petty or silly (pick you poison). A lot of bigger developers, especially streaming services, got spooked by the fact that users can inspect the .app bundle and look inside, with assets easy to copy. In response a lot of big developers disabled the option because I guess security through obscurity sounds appealing.
      - kmeisthax 3y ago
        Most users on macOS aren't opening bundles. Even if that was part of the threat model, Apple doesn't encrypt bundle resources; only the binaries[0]. Before they got rid of iTunes, you actually used to be able to download IPAs through it to sync them onto your iPhone[1]. The IPA files were right on the drive and could be opened by anyone. The underlying interfaces to do this still exist and you can still get IPAs today using Apple Configurator 2, iMazing[2], or straight off the Apple CDN[3]. [0] https://forums.developer.apple.com/forums/thread/13486 https://forums.developer.apple.com/forums/thread/13486 This is also why you can't run iOS apps on unsigned macOS - the secure enclave will refuse to decrypt apps unless the currently booted OS is Apple-signed, with the usual integrity protections in place. [1] https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/298391/how-do-i-download-an-ios-app-ipa-file-to-my-mac-after-itunes-12-7-update https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/298391/how-do-i-do... [2] https://imazing.com/guides/how-to-manage-apps-without-itunes https://imazing.com/guides/how-to-manage-apps-without-itunes Also, shoutout to iMazing in general, it's a really useful tool for playing around with device backups. [3] I can't find the citation for this but I swear I saw a blog post that told you how to do this.

stetrain 3y ago

You can use any App Store or downloaded app on your MacBook. For instance I have Steam on mine which is basically the definition of third party App Store. For iPhones and iPads you're correct though.

theturtletalks 3y ago
Except Apple doesn’t let every app do that. They effectively decide which company wins while blocking all others. The same argument was made against Google since they charged a lower Play Store commission for Spotify.
- Terretta 3y ago
  This is categorically not true. 1) You can run every Mac app sold by a third party store that's designed to run on your Mac. 2) Anyone can make a Mac app store. The only apps Apple blocks from arbitrary sources are known malware. Even that can be turned off if you're either a masochist or a malware researcher. PS. See also the wonderful SetApp store: https://setapp.com/ https://setapp.com/ Many apps in Apple's app store are alternatively available through SetApp. For anything in SetApp, I get it there.
  - theturtletalks 3y ago
    Nice straw man there. I wasn’t talking about the Mac App Store which is not even the target of anti-trust investigations. Macs allow you to install apps from anywhere. It’s the iOS App Store that doesn’t allow apps to be app marketplaces within. Setapp is a subscription service, not an app marketplace.
    - Terretta 3y ago
      You were talking Mac. > Setapp is a subscription service, not an app marketplace That's a really weird way to draw that line. I go there, goods are marketed to me, I pay money to use them. That's the definition of a market and the site and its desktop app are a marketplace. Unless you're arguing that if Apple finished transitioning the iOS app marketplace to purely subscription, it's no longer a marketplace. That would be a really unusual stance.

jevoten 3y ago

> But the consumer has one choice, constrained by geography Even if their choice wasn't so constrained, the choice between shopping at the Walmart next door, or the Walmart down the road, is not very helpful. It would have been laughable if the Northern Securities trust [1] had argued they were not a monopoly because consumers could choose between multiple railways (all owned by Northern Securities). In fact, it would have been an argument in favor that they are a monopoly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Securities_Co._v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Securities_Co._v._Uni...

bastardoperator 3y ago

I download all my apps on my MacBook from brew/cask. I choose not to use the app store. I don't put my faith in corporations, but I'm also not putting the security of my phone in the hands of a 3rd party app store either.

d1sxeyes 3y ago
Your laptop, however, is fair game?
- bastardoperator 3y ago
  Brew has security audits and mechanisms in place to prevent bad actors. I trust OSS volunteers more than I trust corporations, does that make sense?
  - jonhohle 3y ago
    Let me introduce you to the NPM team!
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Dr4kn 3y ago
    If 3rd party appstores are allowed what stops people from having an open source one?

itake 3y ago

> And do I have a choice to use a non Apple App Store? No! I use Steam and Google Chrome on my Macbook. These include separate software storefronts.

lumb63 3y ago

I agree with your position regarding Apple’s statement being bogus. That said, I don’t understand the monopoly comparison. Complaining there is only an Apple App Store is like buying a Ford and complaining Chevy parts don’t fit. Or a Samsung dishwasher only accepts Samsung parts. Or a PC only accepts the user’s password. Or a lock only accepts one key. Or a pet fish cannot fly. If you buy or use a product that has constraints, you will be subject to those constraints. If you do not want to be subject to those constraints, do not buy or use those products. The people who argue for antitrust action against Apple seem to badly misunderstand anti-trust, at least compared to my own understanding. For instance, the above poster says “if I have a MacBook” - the fact that there are other products for consumers to buy besides MacBooks, without the constraints of a MacBook, is testament to the fact that Apple’s position is not monopolistic.

dpkonofa 3y ago
Are you a lawyer, by chance? Because this is the exact argument I keep making and the part that I really don't understand at all at the anti-Apple positions people take. If they were truly a monopoly, I'd be all for breaking it up but they're really not and I don't see how this falls into that definition for exactly the reasons you've stated.
tommica 3y ago
> Complaining there is only an Apple App Store is like buying a Ford and complaining Chevy parts don’t fit Isn't a more apt comparison be that Ford does not allow Chevy to make and sell parts that fit to one of their vehicles.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  Nintendo's store is the only one available on a Switch. That is almost a congruent comparison.
  - tommica 3y ago
    Good point, and maybe that should scrutinized in the same way

almatia 3y ago

[dead]

dwaite 3y ago

> And do I have a choice to use a non Apple App Store? No! On Mac? There's many of them, the one which springs to mind most quickly being Steam.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Terretta 3y ago

> while there might be multiple stores for Apple, there’s only one for my device from Apple Not strictly true. I can choose to shop for and run certain iPad apps on my M-series Mac, including apps that have separate Mac and iPad versions. (Sometimes I prefer the mobile version.)

firecall 3y ago

Of course it’s BS! Apples lawyers are just trying to shake the foundations of the case by pointing out any inaccuracies that they can. Standard practice I would guess, and not really news worthy in and of itself :-)

turquoisevar 3y ago

> Hahaha - what a BS argument! As much as it sounds like a BS argument to you, the argument isn’t actually of Apple’s making. I don’t blame you for thinking otherwise though, it’s mainly poor reporting by Reuters and subsequently 9to5 that fails to explain this. The EU was first to look at the App Stores separately to determine how many users each store had and if they’d fall under the DMA, primarily driven by the idea that each OS has its own functionality and limitations and different purposes. I’ll owe you a citation because I don’t have it on hand, but if memory serves me right iOS and its App Store came out as the only one with sufficient EU users. This was undesirable from the EU’s standpoint as it meant that they weren’t able to regulate the other OSs/App Stored so the EU reversed course and started treating them as one and the same. Cue Apple, who now appeal this finding, and argue that they are in fact separate. But as said above, that argument isn’t of Apple’s making, that’s how the EU saw it initially as well and how they started their threshold tests. > And if I have a MacBook, for instance, do I have a choice in downloading the app from the iPad store or the iPhone store? No, there’s just one for my device! This is not really a relevant argument, as it suggests that storefronts only exist as separate storefronts if you can download from it. The Google Play store is definitely a different store than the Apple App Store, but you can’t download from it. That said, on Apple Silicon MacBooks you can definitely download apps from the iPhone and iPad App Store. > And do I have a choice to use a non Apple App Store? No! On the MacBook? Yes, definitely. You can use Steam for example, or no store, or SetApp, etc, etc. > So while there might be multiple stores for Apple, there’s only one for my device from Apple Again, opinion on the argument notwithstanding, this is a non sequitur. Whether you can only use one store on your device says little about it and how Apple’s App Stores are separate. There are actually some decent arguments to be made that Apple’s App Stores are not separate, but I don’t think this is one of them. > It’s like arguing that any monopoly isn’t actually a monopoly because the company has multiple physical locations. But the consumer has one choice, constrained by geography This is not a good analogy, because monopoly and monopoly powers are not analogous to running multiple stores. You can run multiple stores, say under two different brands or one for consumers and one for business customers and still be a monopoly for example. > I’m no lawyer but this is clearly a Hail Mary, perhaps suggested by some law firm to get a little more money out of Apple I used to be one in a former life, specialized in EU law and other international law, and for better or for worse this is not a Hail Mary. It’s actually a pretty solid argument within the context of the DMA because of the way DMA determines gatekeeper status (which was why the EU originally looked at the OSs and storefronts separately). That said, I think there are some bigger issues with the DMA and how it’s applied, suggesting that the EU is bending some of the regulations to target specific companies and services beyond plausible deniability. We’ll have to see how those shake out in court, because that’s generally a no-no. I expect some degree of compliance and some degree of long legal proceedings to get some clear boundaries set for both companies like Apple as well as the EU. The latter will then try to amend the legislation in an attempt to achieve their goal and the cycle will start over. With some luck by 2030 the dust has settled and everyone knows what they’re up against.