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This is on the same shelf as when they tried to convince EU that iPhone is not in fact a phone, so their ask about using a standardized charger doesn’t apply.

This is on the same shelf as when they tried to convince EU that iPhone is not in fact a phone, so their ask about using a standardized charger doesn’t apply. A friend got one of them new notPhone with a USB C charging port a week ago. Sometimes EU does good things, this is one them. I’m so looking forward to alternative app stores.

bee_rider 3y ago
Mixed feelings. I’d like a GNU store but that’s about it. It will be annoying when people start using the Facebook spyware store or some other junk. That’s their choice I guess, but it makes the ecosystem work (typo edit: work should be worse) I think.
- Y-bar 3y ago
  Let's say Apple gets forced to allow third party app stores. Would there be anything stopping Apple from requiring those app stores to have real, actual individual be responsible for the actively policing those stores for things like fraud and actual malware? For example if there are too many reports of fraud or abuse though some store Apple could hold that individual responsible and or withdraw the signing key for their store? I would guess something like could help.
  - throwaway22056 3y ago
    Yes, the EU. It forces Apple to allow sideloading - that means installing apps with no restrictions, from any sources such as any random website. A store is just an app, thus there will be no way for Apple to force alternative stores to anything. There doesn't even need to be a person that could be held responsible, or they could be easily masked behind anonymity of the web or layers of white horses / phished identities.
    - Y-bar 3y ago
      But from my perspective sideloading is not necessarily a separate on-device store. An on-device store would be equivalent to Steam which first need to be installed on the device for example via the regular iOS App Store or sideloading or another already installed app store. Sideloading would be downloading from a web page or secondary device or similar method. Separate stores would be a decent middle-ground for my part when less tech-savvy people inevitably ask me "can I trust this app" I can reply with "are you about to install it from store X or Y or download elsewhere?". If the answer is "that store from Epic Games" I could sigh quietly and say "it's likely okay".
      - throwaway22056 3y ago
        Yes, and you if sideload a store app from a website (a random one, or Facebook, MS, etc), Apple is out of control in that case. They could ban the altstore from their own App Store, but not from the web. My problem is exactly with these "safe stores from well known companies". Apple helps me. EpicStore and MetaStore helps them sidestep the anti-tracking and anti-spam rules of App Store.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        > Apple helps me. That's a bit of a stretch. Apple, much like every other business, cares about you insofar as you're a paying customer. That's why they don't let you use... well, stuff like third-party payment processors.
        throwaway22056 3y ago
        Which is great, I much prefer Apple Pay and their overview of all subscriptions etc and them actually enforcing what changes I make there, as opposed to the situation on Android where I was charged by custom payment gateway implementations after cancelling the subscription many times and Google just told me to take it up with the app vendor who never responded.
        smoldesu 3y ago
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      Is that what they are planning to do? I definitely can see a “store is just an app, you must allow third party apps” as a sort of maximal approach. But treating app stores as a sort of special thing that requires extra permission and coordination doesn’t seem totally impossible. It could be sort of nice if each store was isolated inside a different sandbox and had it’s own filesystem. (I wouldn’t be that surprised if something like that happened because it is both justifiable from a security point of view, and also mildly annoying for people who want to use third party stores, which I guess Apple would prefer).
      - throwaway22056 3y ago
        It's what they did, the law is approved and will come into effect soon. A store is just an app like any other apps - e.g. your browser. If you can download an app from the web, you can download a store, and the store can download other apps.
        bee_rider 3y ago
        That’s unfortunate
        bee_rider 3y ago
        I find it weird that this comment was downvoted while my comment up two was upvoted. If you agree that a store should be something other than just another app, then you ought to agree that it is unfortunate if this is their plan. If you agree but downvoted because you think it isn’t their plan, maybe you can show us why the person I responded to here was wrong? That would be reassuring!
- pretext-1 3y ago
  Why do you care if other people „start using the Facebook spyware store“? No one is forcing you to use another store. Android has alternative app stores and you can still use the Google Play Store for everything if you want to.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    Is DJI still distributing their app as an apk, or are they excluded from everything for some reason?
    - jgilias 3y ago
      Well then, don’t use DJI stuff. I’m pretty sure Apple will keep positioning their App Store as the official authorized way to get software for iDevices. I’m also pretty sure that there’s going to be huge inertia there and most of the apps are going to be on App Store still. So your ability to live in a walled garden won’t be affected much. Yes, some apps will move away from the App Store, and I suggest you to vote with your wallet and not use them. I for one absolutely cherish the ability to install software I choose on the device that’s supposedly mine.
      - bee_rider 3y ago
        Sure, this is why I have mixed feeling rather than straight up opposition. Would it be nice to be able to install third party apps? I’d like… a GNU store, maybe a Suckless store, Panic is decent. There are pros, it isn’t all cons. There is a downside, though, snooping companies like Facebook and Google are going to use this to circumvent Apple’s privacy rules. I disagree that this is a case of “vote with your wallet.” I already voted with my wallet by opting into a less open ecosystem for my phone. In general, individuals voting with their wallets have limited reach, this is why people do things like join unions or co-ops. It was good to have at least one popular platform that enforced at least some bare minimum standards that we could opt in to, that most app authors wanted to support.
        idle_zealot 3y ago
- dktp 3y ago
  If my Mac only allowed downloads from the Apple store, it would essentially render it useless (for me) Likewise, I like to think that opening up my phone could make it more useful
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    All of my non-phone devices are Linux. I like the separation there. Phones are not really good devices for working on, and as a result, aren’t that fun to tinker with. I’d rather just leave it locked down. The app based model that phones use is kind of crap. I will happily pipe together a bunch of little scripts and programs in bash to make a workflow for my niche usecase. But, phone apps don’t seem to focus on inter-operability. As a result, in the phone ecosystem you just have to find an app, or the task is basically impossible. If I’m not going to use third party store, and there are fewer apps in the official App Store, I’ll probably use my phone less. On the bright side, maybe making the phone ecosystem worse will open up room for more proper Linux phones with the full desktop suite of tools.
- fsflover 3y ago
  > I’d like a GNU store This is the reality on GNU/Linux phones, Librem 5 and Pinephone.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    True. Generally when I looked into those, the reviews focused on the poor build quality, high prices, and limited software. But it was a couple years ago, though, so I bet they are doing better now. I think for my next phone I’ll look into them again. I like Linux. I like tinkering with my computer. I don’t really enjoy the smartphone form-factor that much, so I’m worried that I won’t enjoy tinkering on my phone as much, so I’ve got somewhat tepid feelings there. But we’ll see how things evolve.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-5-daily-driven-in-professional-use-success/22303 https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-5-daily-driven-in-profession...
      - bee_rider 3y ago
        That’s a very positive review. Hoping to get four or so more years out of my current iPhone, but I’ll definitely check them out when it finally dies.

bee_rider 3y ago

Mixed feelings. I’d like a GNU store but that’s about it. It will be annoying when people start using the Facebook spyware store or some other junk. That’s their choice I guess, but it makes the ecosystem work (typo edit: work should be worse) I think.

Y-bar 3y ago
Let's say Apple gets forced to allow third party app stores. Would there be anything stopping Apple from requiring those app stores to have real, actual individual be responsible for the actively policing those stores for things like fraud and actual malware? For example if there are too many reports of fraud or abuse though some store Apple could hold that individual responsible and or withdraw the signing key for their store? I would guess something like could help.
- throwaway22056 3y ago
  Yes, the EU. It forces Apple to allow sideloading - that means installing apps with no restrictions, from any sources such as any random website. A store is just an app, thus there will be no way for Apple to force alternative stores to anything. There doesn't even need to be a person that could be held responsible, or they could be easily masked behind anonymity of the web or layers of white horses / phished identities.
  - Y-bar 3y ago
    But from my perspective sideloading is not necessarily a separate on-device store. An on-device store would be equivalent to Steam which first need to be installed on the device for example via the regular iOS App Store or sideloading or another already installed app store. Sideloading would be downloading from a web page or secondary device or similar method. Separate stores would be a decent middle-ground for my part when less tech-savvy people inevitably ask me "can I trust this app" I can reply with "are you about to install it from store X or Y or download elsewhere?". If the answer is "that store from Epic Games" I could sigh quietly and say "it's likely okay".
    - throwaway22056 3y ago
      Yes, and you if sideload a store app from a website (a random one, or Facebook, MS, etc), Apple is out of control in that case. They could ban the altstore from their own App Store, but not from the web. My problem is exactly with these "safe stores from well known companies". Apple helps me. EpicStore and MetaStore helps them sidestep the anti-tracking and anti-spam rules of App Store.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        > Apple helps me. That's a bit of a stretch. Apple, much like every other business, cares about you insofar as you're a paying customer. That's why they don't let you use... well, stuff like third-party payment processors.
        throwaway22056 3y ago
        Which is great, I much prefer Apple Pay and their overview of all subscriptions etc and them actually enforcing what changes I make there, as opposed to the situation on Android where I was charged by custom payment gateway implementations after cancelling the subscription many times and Google just told me to take it up with the app vendor who never responded.
        smoldesu 3y ago
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    Is that what they are planning to do? I definitely can see a “store is just an app, you must allow third party apps” as a sort of maximal approach. But treating app stores as a sort of special thing that requires extra permission and coordination doesn’t seem totally impossible. It could be sort of nice if each store was isolated inside a different sandbox and had it’s own filesystem. (I wouldn’t be that surprised if something like that happened because it is both justifiable from a security point of view, and also mildly annoying for people who want to use third party stores, which I guess Apple would prefer).
    - throwaway22056 3y ago
      It's what they did, the law is approved and will come into effect soon. A store is just an app like any other apps - e.g. your browser. If you can download an app from the web, you can download a store, and the store can download other apps.
      - bee_rider 3y ago
        That’s unfortunate
        bee_rider 3y ago
        I find it weird that this comment was downvoted while my comment up two was upvoted. If you agree that a store should be something other than just another app, then you ought to agree that it is unfortunate if this is their plan. If you agree but downvoted because you think it isn’t their plan, maybe you can show us why the person I responded to here was wrong? That would be reassuring!
pretext-1 3y ago
Why do you care if other people „start using the Facebook spyware store“? No one is forcing you to use another store. Android has alternative app stores and you can still use the Google Play Store for everything if you want to.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  Is DJI still distributing their app as an apk, or are they excluded from everything for some reason?
  - jgilias 3y ago
    Well then, don’t use DJI stuff. I’m pretty sure Apple will keep positioning their App Store as the official authorized way to get software for iDevices. I’m also pretty sure that there’s going to be huge inertia there and most of the apps are going to be on App Store still. So your ability to live in a walled garden won’t be affected much. Yes, some apps will move away from the App Store, and I suggest you to vote with your wallet and not use them. I for one absolutely cherish the ability to install software I choose on the device that’s supposedly mine.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      Sure, this is why I have mixed feeling rather than straight up opposition. Would it be nice to be able to install third party apps? I’d like… a GNU store, maybe a Suckless store, Panic is decent. There are pros, it isn’t all cons. There is a downside, though, snooping companies like Facebook and Google are going to use this to circumvent Apple’s privacy rules. I disagree that this is a case of “vote with your wallet.” I already voted with my wallet by opting into a less open ecosystem for my phone. In general, individuals voting with their wallets have limited reach, this is why people do things like join unions or co-ops. It was good to have at least one popular platform that enforced at least some bare minimum standards that we could opt in to, that most app authors wanted to support.
      - idle_zealot 3y ago
dktp 3y ago
If my Mac only allowed downloads from the Apple store, it would essentially render it useless (for me) Likewise, I like to think that opening up my phone could make it more useful
- bee_rider 3y ago
  All of my non-phone devices are Linux. I like the separation there. Phones are not really good devices for working on, and as a result, aren’t that fun to tinker with. I’d rather just leave it locked down. The app based model that phones use is kind of crap. I will happily pipe together a bunch of little scripts and programs in bash to make a workflow for my niche usecase. But, phone apps don’t seem to focus on inter-operability. As a result, in the phone ecosystem you just have to find an app, or the task is basically impossible. If I’m not going to use third party store, and there are fewer apps in the official App Store, I’ll probably use my phone less. On the bright side, maybe making the phone ecosystem worse will open up room for more proper Linux phones with the full desktop suite of tools.
fsflover 3y ago
> I’d like a GNU store This is the reality on GNU/Linux phones, Librem 5 and Pinephone.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  True. Generally when I looked into those, the reviews focused on the poor build quality, high prices, and limited software. But it was a couple years ago, though, so I bet they are doing better now. I think for my next phone I’ll look into them again. I like Linux. I like tinkering with my computer. I don’t really enjoy the smartphone form-factor that much, so I’m worried that I won’t enjoy tinkering on my phone as much, so I’ve got somewhat tepid feelings there. But we’ll see how things evolve.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-5-daily-driven-in-professional-use-success/22303 https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-5-daily-driven-in-profession...
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      That’s a very positive review. Hoping to get four or so more years out of my current iPhone, but I’ll definitely check them out when it finally dies.